Enzymes vs malt

[MichiganCornhusker]

I suppose there's no difference in the results.

I would definitely add HTL after you mix corn with the boiling water. If I recall right, those enzymes denature around 190F, so you need the corn to cool the water down just a bit.

[vernue]

That's right - I had forgotten that.

I brought the rye up to 40C last night and covered it well, but after 90 minutes it was late and I was tired. I figured it would be no big deal to let the rye soak in the warm water til morning - it might even be good for it.

Now I'd read before about rye "puking," but it's something one has to experience in order to know you never want to experience it again. It smells like puke and it looks like cat puke and it is hell to clean up, and my shack still smells like puke. I didn't lose very much, and everything else is going well, according to plan. I'm approaching pitching temps and I'm about to rehydrate the yeast. I'm using bakers yeast for this - it's what I have. The mash tastes so sweet and there's a good balance between the rye and the corn, and barley maltiness is noticeable. Looking forward to a ferment between 75=80F, and a week or two wait afterwards.

I thank you all for your help and advice, and I'll post progress here.

[vernue]

Ok - iodine test was great, despite all the suspended particles. OG hard to figure - i kept tapping the glass til the hydrometer stopped moving and i think we agreed on something like 1.062. Rehydrated the yeast the Big R way and pitched. I have a stick-on thermometer on the fermenter so I can keep track of it.

[vernue]

update: the ferment went for about a week, keeping the temp at ~80. Set it outside in the chill for a couple days after bubbling stopped, and it cleared nicely. Squeezed it today, and beyond a doubt, this was the easiest time I've ever had with rye. The mash was slightly more viscous than a normal mash and there was still the slippery sliminess of rye, but there was a lot of clear wort on top and pressing out the grains mop-style was no trouble at all.I think I got maybe 36 l out a a nearly 40 l mash. FG was .006, and I'll take that fine. I'm really excited about this project!

Figure I'll let the buckets sit out in the cold for a week or so before stripping. No matter how fluid the wort seems, it is, after all, rye, and when I run it I'll put a pizza stone between the flame and the still. Takes longer, but it is a worthwhile insurance policy.

[Twisted Brick]

Congrats on your first rye ferment, vernue. 7.22abv, perfect.

Question: is your pizza 'stone' made of a natural stone, or is it metal? I run a wood-fired brick oven in the backyard and am dubious of the heat conductivity of any kind of stone in this application. Stone takes a long time to heat up and gives up its heat slowly, and would not be an efficient diffuser, IMHO. If it is stone, I would recommend you instead heat your rye wash slowly while stirring continuously up until a point well before volatiles start to get loose.

[Justinthunder]

I just did a rye where I milled it very fine, my entire wash was cloudy the whole time, the rye instantly clogged and messed up my cheese cloth bag? I ended up pouring jug after jug into the double mesh strainer and swirling it around, after filtering it 3 times it was still cloudy and had rye floating. I just said f*#%* it and ran it very slow and everything turned out fine. My advise is just run slow and don’t use the stone

[shadylane]

I'd run it slow and with the stone.
Also constantly stir the pot during heat up.
Wouldn't put the cap on the pot until it got too hot to stir anymore.

Here's probably the best tutorial on using enzymes on corn.

[vernue]

Congrats on your first rye ferment, vernue. 7.22abv, perfect.

Question: is your pizza 'stone' made of a natural stone, or is it metal? I run a wood-fired brick oven in the backyard and am dubious of the heat conductivity of any kind of stone in this application. Stone takes a long time to heat up and gives up its heat slowly, and would not be an efficient diffuser, IMHO. If it is stone, I would recommend you instead heat your rye wash slowly while stirring continuously up until a point well before volatiles start to get loose.

It's fire brick - but thin, about a cm thick. So it really does the job well, both of being a shield for the raw flame of the propane and conducting heat to the still. I've used it before with good results, and after having cleaned a high rye bourbon scorch (egads, what a mess), i swear by the thing. My other hobby when I'm not distilling is building masonry heaters, so I'm pretty familiar with fire brick and its properties. I do also keep the top off the still and stir til hot - I've probably read more about mashing and stilling rye than anything else on the forum. Working towards a GW run and if I can pull that off well, an 80% unmalted rye.

Going to pick up a 70 l pot with spigot this morning - a real step up for me in ease of production!

[vernue]

I'd run it slow and with the stone.
Also constantly stir the pot during heat up.
Wouldn't put the cap on the pot until it got too hot to stir anymore.

Here's probably the best tutorial on using enzymes on corn.

Yeah I love this video - corn porn He's from a community real close to Louisville, where my family is from, and I was hoping to look him up next time visiting, but I hear he's had issues with the man. Any idea what's up with him?

[Twisted Brick]

It's fire brick - but thin, about a cm thick. So it really does the job well, both of being a shield for the raw flame of the propane and conducting heat to the still. I've used it before with good results, and after having cleaned a high rye bourbon scorch (egads, what a mess), i swear by the thing.

Nice. Should work a treat! I was skeptical thinking it might be one of those foo-foo composite pizza stones that crack from thermal shock after half a dozen uses. You got it wired already. About 10 years ago I got hooked on the thermal properties of firebrick and cut 340 trapezoids out of the stuff. Would love to see pics of one of your masonry heaters.

Looking forward to your rye trials. I'm right behind but will be using rye malt.
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[Zeotropic]

It's fire brick - but thin, about a cm thick. So it really does the job well, both of being a shield for the raw flame of the propane and conducting heat to the still. I've used it before with good results, and after having cleaned a high rye bourbon scorch (egads, what a mess), i swear by the thing.

Nice. Should work a treat! I was skeptical thinking it might be one of those foo-foo composite pizza stones that crack from thermal shock after half a dozen uses. You got it wired already. About 10 years ago I got hooked on the thermal properties of firebrick and cut 340 trapezoids out of the stuff. Would love to see pics of one of your masonry heaters.

Looking forward to your rye trials. I'm right behind but will be using rye malt.
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Oven interior.jpg

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That is truly beautiful. A work of art. if you need any more space for your brickwork I've got plenty of room in my backyard. [emoji16]

[vernue]

that is truly exceptional brickwork. wish i could produce something on that level!

[vernue]

no twisted bricks there!

[Twisted Brick]

Thanks gents. I know this has nothing to do with enzymes or malt, but this oven was my first ever masonry project and working with a tile saw. I fell in love with the work so took my sweet time. I tackled making a tapered flue box and complex entryway that flares out from the oven for more visibility/access inside. Aside from figuring out the math for connecting three dissimilar arches, I had to figure out how to shave/taper the flue box and entryway bricks, hence the term 'twisted brick'.
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[8Ball]

Thanks gents. I know this has nothing to do with enzymes or malt, but this oven was my first ever masonry project and working with a tile saw. I fell in love with the work so took my sweet time. I tackled making a tapered flue box and complex entryway that flares out from the oven for more visibility/access inside. Aside from figuring out the math for connecting three dissimilar arches, I had to figure out how to shave/taper the flue box and entryway bricks, hence the term 'twisted brick'.
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Show off!! Jk. Awesome work.

[vernue]

amazing how you visualized the shape of the brick.it would take me a few drinks to get there, and then I wouldn't remember it in the morning.

[NormandieStill]

Aside from figuring out the math for connecting three dissimilar arches, I had to figure out how to shave/taper the flue box and entryway bricks, hence the term 'twisted brick'.

If you haven't already you should take a look at stereotomy (Not the album, the methodology). At the risk of finding another rabbit hole to wander down.

[Twisted Brick]

If you haven't already you should take a look at stereotomy (Not the album, the methodology). At the risk of finding another rabbit hole to wander down.

First I’ve heard of stereotomy. Fortunately, I’ve moved on from mortaring bricks together to the separation of volatiles for the making of whisky. Good thing I wasn’t exposed to stereotomy until you pointed it out. When I first learned about the forces of gravity on different kinds of arches and lines of thrust, I spent weeks on end reading about Rafael Guastavino and his work with vaulted structures. Stereotomy looks totally cool, though. Thanks for sharing.

Twisted

[Twisted Brick]

amazing how you visualized the shape of the brick.it would take me a few drinks to get there, and then I wouldn't remember it in the morning.

I used Sketchup to see where my design ideas were going and I would be lying if I said more than a few drinks weren’t involved!

[bluedog]

This is a sound approach. Throwing boiling water on top of your unmalted rye would leave you hating the predicament you got yourself in, much less potentially compromising the very best drop you can make. Beta-glucans are real and require structured handling to minimize their gumminess. Your glucanase rest temps are within recommended range and should work well to thin the beta glucans.


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Twisted Brick
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Optimum All-grain Temps
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There is an additional enzyme that can be added to help with high Beta-Glucan grains like rye or even wheat. Glucanase, not to be confused with gluco amylase. Its added around the same temperature as the gluco amylase, I like the 130-140F range.

[still_stirrin]

There is an additional enzyme that can be added to help with high Beta-Glucan grains like rye or even wheat. Glucanase, not to be confused with gluco amylase.

Its added around the same temperature as the gluco amylase, I like the 130-140F range.

True in part. The beta-glucan enzymes are developed at a little lower temperature.

Typically, I would do a “temperature rest” on the way UP in temperature, as done in step infusion mashes. I typically hold at 110*F for 30 minutes and then infuse upward with more hot water. This is especially important with oats and rye cereal malts. With wheat malt in the recipe, I’ll also do a (protein) temperature rest at 125*F before proceeding to a saccarification temperature.

Because these enzymes are developed in “thicker mashes”, starting the mash with less water is appropriate, and this allows the mash to “thin” during the upward infusions. Often, by this time in the mashing process, I have enough mash water in the tun, so I will pull a decoction to raise the temperature. Decoction mashing also helps with melanoid production to give the beer a big toasty malt flavor.

This is an extract (from a homebrewing website) explaining the beta-glucanase enzymes:

The enzyme is extremely sensitive to heat and if the enzyme is required in the brewhouse grist, for example to deal with residual β-glucan in poorly modified grain or adjuncts rich in β-glucan such as raw, roasted, torrefied, or flaked barley or oats, then the green malt must be kilned at a lower onset temperature with progressive ramping to a non- excessive final curing temperature.

Furthermore, mashing needs to commence at a reduced temperature (e.g., 40°C–50°C or 104°F–122°F) if the β-glucanase is to function at that stage.

Alternatively, more heat-tolerant microbial β-glucanases can be added to the mash. These include the enzyme from Bacillus subtilis, whose specificity is very similar to that from malt, or glucanases derived from fungi such as Aspergillus, Trichoderma, or Penicillium, which comprise mixtures of enzymes with different specificity, including endo- and exo- β1-3- and β1-4-glucanases. As a consequence they are much more comprehensive in their removal of glucan.

[Demy]

Thanks gents. I know this has nothing to do with enzymes or malt, but this oven was my first ever masonry project and working with a tile saw. I fell in love with the work so took my sweet time. I tackled making a tapered flue box and complex entryway that flares out from the oven for more visibility/access inside. Aside from figuring out the math for connecting three dissimilar arches, I had to figure out how to shave/taper the flue box and entryway bricks, hence the term 'twisted brick'.
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Good job. I built a small oven many years ago (for pizza and bread), for reasons of space I had to make an oval shape and things get very complicated, plus I have not made or drawings I have never seen an oven made (even if I have a some familiarity with do-it-yourself masonry).

[bluedog]

@still_stirin I looked a the spec sheet of the B-Glucanase enzyme I've used and it is the more heat tolerant variety mentioned in the end of your quote. Says it is derived from Trichoderma longibrachiatum, and the optimum temperature is 140F

"pH Profile
Optimum pH for Bioglucanase GB is pH 5.0. 80% of the maximum activity is found between pH 4.5 and 6.0.
Temperature profile
The optimum temperature of Bioglucanase GB is 60 oC."

Good to know that naturally occurring enzyme in the malt are less heat tolerant. I end up doing pretty much what you do anyways though. I mash in thick with 140F water so i don't get any dough balls, which puts me at around 120F then gradually bring it up to my saccharification temps. Next time I use it ill go in a hair cooler and add a 30 min rest to see if it makes any difference.

[vernue]

blue, I'd be interested in that enzyme - does it have a commercial name, a site where I can find it?

for me, it's a challenge even to heat up the rye to 40C without it sticking to the bottom of the pot and threatening to scorch - and this is with frequent stirring and a pretty thick bottomed ss pot and an eye on the flame. Rye just loves to sit on the bottom of the pot and cause trouble. I would not even think about putting rye on the fire without a firebrick between. Would it do just as well to add the rye after the water is already heated and wrap it up good? I like for it to sit in that warm water for a good long time, even overnight. I assume I'd get the same effect.

[bluedog]

@vernue I've only used rye in beer. I use a lot of wheat though, which I think is slightly less gummy than rye. However, I think adding the rye to hot water would be worse, as the flour will want to clump into cooked dough balls, which are hard to break up, and sink to the bottom even worse. It used to be possible to order small quanities of b-glucanase from the guy whose video you shared, Sherman, but as you mentioned, i think he got in some trouble. I dont know where to get small quantities of enzyme these days, unless you order a whole liter of it, which is the smallest quanity they sell it in, and is probably enough to make a couple thousand gallons of mash, and has a limited shelf life.

[bluedog]

Sebflo tl or bioglucanase gb are two commercial names for it.

[vernue]

an update on the rye project:
I've got a cousin who works for a distillery in Finland - Kyro - and they make everything from rye. She sent me some samples of their 100% rye whiskey, and it had a very distinctive, earthy rye flavor. I tried mine for the first time last night, and whooeeee - it is at least as good.at only 2 months old. putting it in the back of the shelf so I don't keep sampling. As an experiment, it was an amazing success. Feels SO good!