advice please

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maka
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advice please

Post by maka »

Below is my haul from a 46.5 litre run of UJSSM low wines at %37

Pot still
Phase controller

ran nice and slow possibly to slow.
ended up with 25 litres of spirit
first jar is %86
last Jar is %30

first 12 jars are above %80 then it started to drop.
i really struggle with the heads to hearts cut.
definitely a huge difference between jars 5, 6 & 7 so that is was originally my cut. start keeping at jar 7. Tails coming right at jar 19.

So my cuts are 7-18

this was a huge run and possibly ran too slow. Pencil lead stream coming out. Each Jar took about 50 minutes to flll. Obviously i had no sleep as this ran for almost 24 hours.

as i said the heads to hearts is where i struggle. Really did not expect it to stay above %80 for so long.

looks for some input from some pros on here,

thanks

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zed255
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Re: advice please

Post by zed255 »

Sounds like a reasonable run, perhaps could have been faster, in particular at the start of hearts. I often get my spirit runs from low wines hanging around 80% ABV for a looong time. You make your cuts by smell and taste anyhow, so why worry that so many jars were relatively high ABV? If it pleases you, it goes in the final blend.
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maka
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Re: advice please

Post by maka »

zed255 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:50 pm Sounds like a reasonable run, perhaps could have been faster, in particular at the start of hearts. I often get my spirit runs from low wines hanging around 80% ABV for a looong time. You make your cuts by smell and taste anyhow, so why worry that so many jars were relatively high ABV? If it pleases you, it goes in the final blend.
it just seams like I'm keeping more than i should. It really struck me by surprise with how long it hung up over 80. It was the first time i ran such a big run. Learning experience for sure.
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Yummyrum
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Re: advice please

Post by Yummyrum »

Big run or small run should all take about the same amount of time . If you double your boiler charge , you can take off at double the speed .

Likewise if you only had half you normal charge , you should run it at half the takeoff rate .
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Twisted Brick
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Re: advice please

Post by Twisted Brick »

You're correct: 24hrs is too slow.

Pencil lead stream for a spirit run sounds normal for speed. What kind of still are you running and if you run outside, was it windy (or cold) perhaps?
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maka
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Re: advice please

Post by maka »

Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:56 pm You're correct: 24hrs is too slow.

Pencil lead stream for a spirit run sounds normal for speed. What kind of still are you running and if you run outside, was it windy (or cold) perhaps?
15 gallon pot still (keg)
5500 watt heater element
phase angle controller
ran about 9 amps for the whole run
last few hours up to 11 amps


So what are the down sides of running to slow?

Thanks
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MichiganCornhusker
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Re: advice please

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

I haven't run a UJ in a long time, but based on my whiskey runs your numbers don't seem too far out of whack... except for the time, that does seem way too long.

I'm not surprised that your abv held fairly steady through the first part of the run, that matches what I normally see.
I've plotted the points on a graph before and the curve of ABV over Time is parabolic, falling very slowly for the majority of the run, then picking up speed once it starts to really drop (a good indicator of drifting into tails).

Not sure what you mean by "tails coming right at jar 19". You mean that's where you saw oils? Cloudy?

Your "keep" cuts seem just a bit wide to me, mostly at the tails end, but that's gonna be subjective on your end.
When I run about 10 gallons of whiskey low wines I usually get between 8 and 10 quarts of juice for my final blend, and that's pushing it for me.

But, 24 hrs?? That sounds brutal. I would expect a run of around 10 gallons of low wines to take me around 5 or 6 hrs total, gas on to gas off, collecting around 5 quarts/hour once I feel like I've gotten past heads. That might be fast for some, but, surely you could cut your time in half.

All in all, I'd say you are on the right track. With that much hooch, next time make a couple different blends, making tighter cuts on the heads end, the tails end, and then one of both. Set those bottles off to the side, age them the same way, and then compare them a year later. It's a good way to find out what you like for cuts long term.
maka wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:05 pmSo what are the down sides of running to slow?
Loss of sleep! :lol:
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NZChris
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Re: advice please

Post by NZChris »

Tasting every jar will wreck your taste buds before you have to make your final choice.

Start with a sample of the obvious heart jars and add to it from each end, alternately working your way out until you can identify which jars are one too far. I taste at about 35%, using a small dipper to measure the distillate and the water, and use a spittoon.

Never commit your final selection to the barrel before you have tasted it sober and with uncompromised taste buds.
maka
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Re: advice please

Post by maka »

MichiganCornhusker wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:25 pm
Not sure what you mean by "tails coming right at jar 19". You mean that's where you saw oils? Cloudy?
maka wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:05 pmSo what are the down sides of running to slow?
Loss of sleep! :lol:
ya, very obvious for me when tails come. especially by smell and taste. jar 18 was still nice and sweet at about %68
by end of jar 19 it was down to about %64 and very musty smelling, kinda wet wood smell.

i really struggle with the heads to heart cut. Starting to thin i run to slow and smear my heads and hearts together.

thanks for your insight.

much appreciated
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Twisted Brick
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Re: advice please

Post by Twisted Brick »

maka wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:05 pm
Twisted Brick wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:56 pm You're correct: 24hrs is too slow.

Pencil lead stream for a spirit run sounds normal for speed. What kind of still are you running and if you run outside, was it windy (or cold) perhaps?
15 gallon pot still (keg)
5500 watt heater element
phase angle controller
ran about 9 amps for the whole run
last few hours up to 11 amps


So what are the down sides of running to slow?

Thanks
Can you describe the ‘still’ portion of your still? Riser dimensions, pot still head specs? Same with lyne arm and condenser?

I’m curious what is causing this takeoff rate. I run a 15 gallon keg on 40k btu’s of NG. A 10 gal spirit charge takes -4hrs after heat up and first drips.

Dude, you’re beating yourself up and desperately need to remedy this, IMO. Good on ya for posting in the first place.

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Bushman
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Re: advice please

Post by Bushman »

Twisted Brick reading through I had the same question as it will tell us a bit more on take off speed. Also I do my cuts the same as NZ Chris, starting in the middle and alternate each time going towards heads and then tails. I jump several jars at a time so as not to dull my senses.
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Re: advice please

Post by HDNB »

if you cut too narrow, the spirit will be fairly one dimensional as it ages out. some of the outliers will add character but require time and oak.
a thin cut will give you smooooth booze, but perhaps a bit boring booze.

it all depends on you the goal i guess.

heres a rough mathematical cut suggestion: of the available alcohol (not the gross take off) 1% is fores. 17% heads, 60 to (63%) 70% hearts and the balance would be tails

The volume of tails will be larger when looked at from a gross take perspective since the abv is much lower.

so 45.5L @ 37% =16.8LAA
168ml fores (plus water involved)
2.85L heads (plus water)
10.6Lhearts (plus water)
balance tails

slower with fores, ramp up to to 2-3.5 LPH on collection on a 2"column, (depends if you are making a full body or lighter spirits....more water carries more flavour, therefore slower means lighter) when you are obviously in tails, let 'er buck and get it done, since you are in reprocessing territory anyway.
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maka
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Re: advice please

Post by maka »

still is a keg 15.5 gallons
here are pics
Liebig is 36" of 1/2" copper jacketed by 1"
i can pretty much adjust condenser water as I wish
i also have a phase angle controller for my still
5500 watt element running at about 2250 watts for most of run
2' copper was used. Cone going from 2" down to 3/4" before liebig




no idea why these pics went in inverted?

stil1.jpg
still.jpg
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Twisted Brick
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Re: advice please

Post by Twisted Brick »

maka wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:21 pm still is a keg 15.5 gallons
here are pics
Liebig is 36" of 1/2" copper jacketed by 1"
i can pretty much adjust condenser water as I wish
i also have a phase angle controller for my still
5500 watt element running at about 2250 watts for most of run
2' copper was used. Cone going from 2" down to 3/4" before liebig
.
Maka still 1.jpg
Maka still 1.jpg (22.86 KiB) Viewed 1452 times
Maka still 2.jpg
Maka still 2.jpg (20.5 KiB) Viewed 1452 times
.
Well, looking at your still, with a consistent vapor path and no sudden constrictions, (nice funnel by the way) I can only ASSuME that your slow speed is caused by 1) condensing of vapor in your lyne arm that slopes back towards the boiler or 2) you aren't giving it the power that you think you are. I would try insulating your lyne arm next run to see if any improvements in speed result from it. Anyone more knowledgeable please chime in.

Your difficulty in discerning your heads to hearts cutoff may be caused by your collection method. I see 24 jars and 25l collected, so about a qt or liter per jar. Since you know approximately where your heads-to-hearts point may be and your hearts-to-tails point may be, try collecting in pint jars around where you think those points lie. Three or four pint jars at each cutoff point will give you much more leeway to choose from than a quart when making cuts.

Just curious: do you feel your hearts separated well and easily identifiable (sweet) in your cut jars? Or are they a little 'hot'? Same with tails?

HTH,

Twisted Brick
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maka
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Re: advice please

Post by maka »

I have a controller so I can give it more power that is not an issue at all. I was using 8 amps running on 220v. So i was at about 1800watts maybe a bit higher at the end. i can get it up to 5280w is my max. I usually heat at that and turn it right down as it heats up.

I just assumed the slower the better however I see that is not the case.

what would be a decent take off rate. 35-55ml per minute kinda thing?

I did my cuts today after letting it air out since Sunday. I kept less than i thought. First 5 jars were hot and very obviously heads, Then was hard to tell for a few jars. Then an obvious sweet smooth mellow flavor. Tails started way sooner than i thought. I was getting that tails taste (not so much smell) with jars still in the mid to low %70 range.

Was a real learning experience. Its hard to tell from the pics however the jars i sued around where i thought the cuts would be are small slightly. about 24oz instead of the 32oz. Not pint jars mind you but they are smaller.

I really do wanna get better at this so any advice would be very much appreciated.

thank you
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Re: advice please

Post by CoogeeBoy »

maka wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:21 pm
no idea why these pics went in inverted?


stil1.jpgstill.jpg
Its because you are on the wrong side of the world!
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Twisted Brick
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Re: advice please

Post by Twisted Brick »

maka wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:32 pm
what would be a decent take off rate. 35-55ml per minute kinda thing?

thank you
This is from yesterday's spirit run on my pot. Stripping runs go a little faster. Maybe someone who runs a liebig could report their takeoff rates.
.
12621 Bourbon Spirit Run.jpg
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

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maka
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Re: advice please

Post by maka »

Twisted Brick wrote:
maka wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:32 pm
what would be a decent take off rate. 35-55ml per minute kinda thing?

thank you
This is from yesterday's spirit run on my pot. Stripping runs go a little faster. Maybe someone who runs a liebig could report their takeoff rates.
.
12621 Bourbon Spirit Run.jpg
Wow, thats fast. You find the cuts easier. By that I mean they switch from heads to tails quicker?
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Twisted Brick
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Re: advice please

Post by Twisted Brick »

The progression of heads to hearts to tails is a function of the makeup of alcohol in the boiler. The speed of a still affects the takeoff rate overall, and does not influence any of the individual fractions themselves.

This should help you:

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11640
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

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maka
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Re: advice please

Post by maka »

Thank you very much sir, I appreciate your help.
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Re: advice please

Post by OldSmitty »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:32 pm Big run or small run should all take about the same amount of time . If you double your boiler charge , you can take off at double the speed .

Likewise if you only had half you normal charge , you should run it at half the takeoff rate .
I'm trying to wrap my head around this advice.

If you run at "full" power for a "full" charge, you get your "standard" takeoff rate. But if you have a "half" charge, you would need to run at "half" power and therefore have "half" takeoff rate. Therefore since you have half as far to go, you would get there at the same time due to going half as fast?
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