Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

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Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Anvil »

Hi,

I've been trying my hand at making stills and gin for about 12 months now. Some gin has even come out OK. But recently, I've struck a problem with my NS - almost a headsy type burn all the way through the hearts.

I have a 50l beer keg with 2x2kw electric elements (cycling timer-based throttling on one element). I use this with a basic 2" pot-still head and liebig condenser for stripping runs. I do three stripping runs (All-bran recipe normally), then change heads to a made-by-me bokakob reflux head, and make some 95+% NS. It all seemed to work well and produced some good NS, and I then made gin with a wee copper alembic still. So far so good.

Then at at about Christmas time, a run of NS tasted bad - it had a slight odour and a distinctive 'burn' on swallowing at 20% strength, even from right in the middle of the 'hearts'.

So, I thought it might be that my stainless steel wool packing was a bit loose, so I did a bit of searching on this site, and re-ran the same NS with lava rock packing. Alas, same outcome. I did notice my copper-downpipe reflux still column was leaking a wee bit down the seam in the copper. Ah-ha I thought, there might be a plastic or silicone seal in the seam that was tainting the NS.

So, I went to my friendly local exhaust shop, and had a new 3" stainless steel column made, and I made a copper angle-plate bokakob head to fit, all held together with tri-clamps and PTFE seals and filled with tightly packed stainless scrubbers. Three fresh brews of the All-bran recipe, stripping runs (with some copper mesh in the pot-still column) and a nice and slow reflux run... Alas, same outcome. I let it sit in the jars with coffee filters on them for a few days - it did not improve.

So, I thought it might be that I was pushing my yeast a bit hard, or had some contamination or something, so I fermented and stripped three batches of Birdwatchers in a new fermenter, looking after temps and SG, so that the yeast was super-happy. Ran it in the reflux today, and alas, same outcome.

Despondency setting in...

From the beginning, I've wrapped the silicone seals in my sight glass in PTFE tape, and same with the silicone seals at the elements, but I'm wondering if that is the source? Everything else is stainless steel or copper with lead-free solder, as per the novice instructions.

Any suggestions for what the problem could be, or what to try next, would be greatly appreciated. Please ask any questions if you need more information from me or there is something I've not explained well.

Many thanks in advance from a frustrated newbie...
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by The Baker »

NS??

Geoff
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

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Neutral Spirit Geoff
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by The Baker »

Yummyrum wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:45 pm Neutral Spirit Geoff
Gotcha, thanks.
GNS I would have recognized.

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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by MartinCash »

Have you changed anything about your fermentation or distillation? For minimising sugar burn (if that's what your problem is), you want to ferment below 7-8% ABV.

What is the take-off rate in your distillations? You've given us good info on your gear, but not so much your process, which is often where problems creep in.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by bilgriss »

Either something in your ferment has changed, or something in your distillation process has changed. That might seem like an obvious statement, but it gives you two paths to follow for troubleshooting.

Ferment:
Cold weather (Christmas) fermentation is different than warm weather. Have you tasted your mash/wash prior to distilling to see if it tastes different than what you were producing previously? If it has an off taste that you object to, it will certainly impact your product. Could be something else growing along with the yeast, contamination, incomplete fermentation leading to scorching, I don't know. If you are certain the fermented product is identical to what you were producing before, you can concentrate of the distillation.

Distillation:
It's possible that differences in how you are pushing the boil (more/less energy) could have some impact on smearing I guess, but I wouldn't expect that with good reflux, unless you are seriously overwhelming it, and your proof would drop if that were the case. Are you collecting in small jars and finding what you like from the final product before combining? How are you judging the hearts that you are finding heads within? Do the low wines taste the same as your earlier batches? Knowing that would help narrow this to whether stripping or spirit run is the source. I seriously doubt the ptfe tape seals have any bearing.

If I were going to blindly speculate (a sure indication that I will) I'd make a stab in the dark and guess that you have gained in confidence, and as a result you have relaxed your protocols, and are collecting heads in your hearts.

I guess a final possibility is that for some reason your hydrometer is way off and your 20% spirit is something more. Calibrate?
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Bee »

Turbo yeast?
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Anvil »

Hi,

First up, thanks for your comments and suggestions so far - I really appreciate it.

In terms of process, like a good newbie, I try and follow instructions from this site. So for All bran and Bird watchers ferments, I try and follow the instructions in these threads. I'm probably at the top end of the sugar loads (9kgs (20lbs) in 50litres (13USGal)), so given the hint from MartinCash, that could be an issue.

Bilgris, I live in Christchurch, New Zealand, so Christmas = summer = hotter. My start temps and ferment temps have crept up with summer weather and the 50l ferment does finish in about a week. You're not wrong in suggesting the two obvious sources of the problem - I've now tried a few distillation/hardware permutations, to no avail, so am now thinking it might be a ferment issue. And Bee, I use bakers yeast as per the instructions in the threads - even if I ever did use Turbo, it would be a bold move to admit it here!

For my stripping runs, I just pour it in and run it at about 3kw of input, which is about as much heat as my liebig can knock back. In tasting a bit during the middle of the stripping run, I think I'm noticing the offending taste, but it is a bit hard for me to tell in a stripping run. For the reflux, I use the LM Still Instructions in the New Distiller Reading Lounge thread, and collect into (lots of) 400ml jars - https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 5#p6815947.

Please keep the suggestions coming, but I might try a batch made with Birdwatchers with about 6kgs of sugar in 50l, with lower temps (its autumn now) to aim for about 7% ABV, to at least see if the ferment is the issue. Does this sound like a sensible approach?

A last question (which I probably know the answer to), but is there anything I can do to recover anything from these batches of NS?

Many thanks again.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by NZChris »

Have you changed the nutrients you are using?
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by bilgriss »

I would think your suggested variation on the amount of sugar and temperature is a good test. High temps and high gravity could certainly be one possible contributor, but honestly bakers yeast usually loves warmer temps and doesn't throw a lot of esters and heads, unless it's just stinking hot.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Archee72 »

Have you cleaned your stainless steel / copper scrubbers?
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by shadylane »

Anvil wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:20 am

A last question (which I probably know the answer to), but is there anything I can do to recover anything from these batches of NS?

Many thanks again.
That's an easy question to answer.
Pour the not-so GNS back into the boiler, top the boiler off with water and run it again.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Anvil »

Archee72 wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:00 pm Have you cleaned your stainless steel / copper scrubbers?
Yup - put them through a hot 'pots' wash in the dishwasher with an extra rinse before the last run.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by SaltyStaves »

Takeoff rate? How long does it take you to fill one of those 400ml jars?
Last edited by SaltyStaves on Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Anvil »

NZChris wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:32 am Have you changed the nutrients you are using?
Not really - for the All bran I use 700gms All bran + 1tsp Fermaid in 50litres. For the Birdwatchers I use a 400g jar of tomato paste + 1tsp Fermaid. That hasn't really changed over time. Does that sound about right?
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by NZChris »

Whatever it says on the bag. I weigh mine. I've only used Fermaid twice and the second is still in the fermenter. If it isn't a change, then it isn't causing your new problem.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Anvil »

SaltyStaves wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:36 pm Takeoff rate? How long do it take you till fill one of those 400ml jars?
It usually takes about an hour to heat up and start refluxing, then I run it in full reflux with no take-off for 30mins, then slowly start take-off at the beginning (steady drips) so the first litre (2-3 jars) takes about an hour. I increase take off when I'm pretty sure I'm in the hearts (usually by taste, but after say 25% of the expected yield). I shut down when tails are clearly evident. Excluding the hour of heating up time, the run takes 6hrs or so. Once it is going, I'm running it with about 3kw input and a 3" column with 1.1m of stainless scrubbers in it - please let me know if I've got the proportions/input/takeoff all wrong.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by NZChris »

Are you running SS scrubbers in a SS column?
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Anvil »

NZChris wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:53 pm Are you running SS scrubbers in a SS column?
Yup, with one rolled up copper mesh packing thingy too (on the top of the ss scrubbers). I put some copper mesh in the pot still vapour path for stripping runs too, just to get some copper in the system.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Cant have to much Copper in the system at any time imo.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by MartinCash »

Anvil wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:47 pm
SaltyStaves wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:36 pm Takeoff rate? How long do it take you till fill one of those 400ml jars?
It usually takes about an hour to heat up and start refluxing, then I run it in full reflux with no take-off for 30mins, then slowly start take-off at the beginning (steady drips) so the first litre (2-3 jars) takes about an hour. I increase take off when I'm pretty sure I'm in the hearts (usually by taste, but after say 25% of the expected yield). I shut down when tails are clearly evident. Excluding the hour of heating up time, the run takes 6hrs or so. Once it is going, I'm running it with about 3kw input and a 3" column with 1.1m of stainless scrubbers in it - please let me know if I've got the proportions/input/takeoff all wrong.
Since you're running low wines, six hours seems too fast. Definitely too fast for your original 2'', probably too fast for your 3''. I can do a 6h reflux run with my 4'' but my 2'' runs were 14 hours+. This might contribute to the issue, especially if you have sugar bite from slightly too high ABV in the fermentation.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by NZChris »

No matter how fast it's run, you shouldn't have 'fire-water' in the middle hearts.
I suspect your problem may be caused by something that you are doing/using that you haven't thought was important enough to tell us about.

Have you checked your hydrometer? I have one with the paper scale 3mm and several % out of whack.

Are you recycling feints?

Might your kids be chucking chili peppers in your fermenter for a laugh?

Anything else?
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by shadylane »

Anvil wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:42 pm
I have a 50l beer keg with 2x2kw electric elements
I do three stripping runs, then change heads to a made-by-me bokakob reflux head,

Then at at about Christmas time, a run of NS tasted bad
Is the column insulated
Has the still house been cold

If I was running your rig.
I'd try increasing the power and decrease the take off rate.
Do a small heads cut on the stripping runs.
And dilute the low-wines more before the refluxed spirit run.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Anvil »

NZChris wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:52 pm No matter how fast it's run, you shouldn't have 'fire-water' in the middle hearts.
I suspect your problem may be caused by something that you are doing/using that you haven't thought was important enough to tell us about.

Have you checked your hydrometer? I have one with the paper scale 3mm and several % out of whack.

Are you recycling feints?

Might your kids be chucking chili peppers in your fermenter for a laugh?

Anything else?
Honestly Chris, I wish I knew what the problem was. No feints, no chillies (funnily enough, my 18yr old son seems pretty keen on supporting Dad's new hobby any way he can!)

My plan is:
1. Ferment two batches of Birdwatchers with 6kg sugar in 50l, aiming for about 7%ABV, with method strictly 'by the book' from the Birdwatchers thread
2. Do stripping runs (with a bit of tasting), then a slow spirit run in the pot still. If I get some OK NS, that will clarify that it is either the ferment or the reflux still that has been the problem.
3. I will then run it through the reflux still. That should identify if the reflux still is introducing issues.
4. While I'm waiting for that to ferment, I will dilute the run I just did to 10%, stripping run it and reflux run it again to see if it makes any difference.

Will report back in a few weeks.

Many thanks to you all for your helpful suggestions, questions and comments. I was a bit nervous asking the question, but really pleased I did.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Anvil »

shadylane wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:57 pm
Anvil wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:42 pm
I have a 50l beer keg with 2x2kw electric elements
I do three stripping runs, then change heads to a made-by-me bokakob reflux head,

Then at at about Christmas time, a run of NS tasted bad
Is the column insulated
Has the still house been cold

If I was running your rig.
I'd try increasing the power and decrease the take off rate.
Do a small heads cut on the stripping runs.
And dilute the low-wines more before the refluxed spirit run.
Thanks ShadyLane,

Column is well insulated with woolen pipe lagging, and it is summertime/autumn here, so 20C/70F is pretty normal.
I'll try cranking it up to 4kw and decreasing the rate of take-off, and see what happens. I've been filling the boiler at just under 40% ABV - I'll try my next batch at 30% ABV.

Once again, I really appreciate the questions and suggestions from the experienced crew here.
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Post by Saltbush Bill »

One suggestion from me , try a different wash, run a Shadys sugar shine through, doubt you will go back to TPW / Birdwatchers.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by NZChris »

Don't forget to remove a foreshot from each strip.
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Re:

Post by Anvil »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:40 pm One suggestion from me , try a different wash, run a Shadys sugar shine through, doubt you will go back to TPW / Birdwatchers.
Thanks Saltbush Bill - I've read that thread and it sounds like a good option to try.

The only confusion I have is the amount of DAP - different people seem to use different amounts - some seem like quite a lot. For 50litres, scaling the recipe would suggest just under 2 tablespoons, which seems quite a bit to me. As per the later posts from ShadyLane, I was going to skip the epsom salt and multivitamins. Can you offer any clarity on the DAP amount?
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I just follow the recipe, vitamins and all.
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Re: Help - why does my NS taste like fire-water?

Post by NZChris »

I use about 2 tablespoons of DAP and a tablespoon of Vegemite per 100l. On day two, I usually add a couple of large shells from my local beach to buffer the pH. If I'm in a hurry, I put an aquarium air pump in the headspace feeding a weighted airstone at the bottom.
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