Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

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WithOrWithoutU2
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Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Well, I've got another lesson under my belt with AG. I hope other rookies who are reading learn from my mistake.

I super insulated my 30 gallon plastic barrel to cook and ferment the AG Mash. And after 18 hours after the saccrification rest the temp is still not below 90. Still waiting to pitch yeast. And on top of it all, it smell like vomit throughout my basement. I assume I have gotten a butyric acid infection in it.

I had insulated my 30 gallon plastic barrel previously with a couple layers of Reflectix insulation. However, when trying to used the steep cooking method, the temps from boiling water seemed to drop to 180F immediately after putting it in the barrel and the temps would not hold very long even after the grains were added. So Sunday I put a couple more layers on it. The temps held GREAT.
But I could not get the temps to drop as a reasonable rate even with the lid off. The grains keep floating to the top and forming an insulating crust. So tonight after work, I have been scooping off the crust and throwing out the grains. The temps are dropping but it won't be until morning that I will probably be able to pitch the yeast.

There is no way this insulated fermenter will stay below 90 once the yeast is added and goes to work. So I am going to remove a couple layers of the insulation.

Should have known better, but now I know.

In the future I will:

1. Practice better sanitary protocols. First time I've had anything like this so I've never taken any of them too serious.
2. Use an immersion chiller to bring temps down more rapidly after saccharification rest.
3. Modify my 30 gallon fermenter by removing the two added layers. I will use a blanket or temporary wrap to help hold temp when steep cooking the grains, but remove it when it comes time to drop the temp and pitching yeast. I think I can create a Reflectix jacket with a Velcro.

PS. From what I have read, during the fermentation vomit smell may very likely go away in a few days. If it does, run it. But if not, don't bother with distillation as the smell will transfer over.

If anyone has any other suggestions, advice, etc please let me know.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by Windy City »

Be careful cleaning that barrel. I had a blue 55 gal barrel that had a butro infection that I could not get rid of. I tried everything including long soaks in starsan, pbw, bleach and a few other cleaning remedies. No matter what I did the butro infection kept coming back. I finally just threw out that barrel.
A immersion chiller is definitely the way to go. I built one for Jimbo with 50’ of 1/2” id copper that works great for him. I pump mine through a tube and shell chiller I built that is 105’ of 3/4” id copper with a 1 1/4” shell.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by NZChris »

My fermenter insulation isn't permanently attached as sometimes I have to loosen it off, or not use it at all, to let a fan cool it. The fan is controlled by the same STC-1000 that controls the heating.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by Saltbush Bill »

NZChris wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:22 pm I have to loosen it off, or not use it at all, to let a fan cool it. The fan is controlled by the same STC-1000 that controls the heating.
:thumbup: gotta get inventive in this game.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by Yummyrum »

WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:43 pm But I could not get the temps to drop as a reasonable rate even with the lid off.
Good post WOWU2 :thumbup:

Although I’m a total AG beginner , I’ve been there and understand the frustration of “ Cool you bastard , Cool” ... especially when life demands other things of you .

The very mechanism that holds the temps for mashing can cause you grief when you need a quick cool down .
Immersion chiller should be part of everyones AG kit .
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by Toxxyc »

Quick Q - after the mash, do you do a boil? And then, after the boil, what do you do with the liquid? I would recommend tapping it off into an HDPE 2 container with a lid that can seal. Even several 6 gallon buckets will work (just make sure they're HDPE 2). Let them cool from boiling overnight, and then pour into the fermenting drum or barrel or whatever the next day. Aerating the wort then and there also works well for the yeast.

It's essentially making no-chill cubes with an all-grain wort intended for making a distilling wash, instead of a drinking beer. I've done it a few times before and it works really well. You can also store it sealed in the container for a long time. Like, months, some people even report years.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by Deplorable »

A 25+ gallon mash holds an incredible amount of heat, and it does it very well. Like others have said, you really need a wort chiller. I always make 25-28 gallon mashes, I use a double wrap of reflectix, 2 wool blankets, and a sleeping bag to hold the heat during the mash/conversion. All held in place with bunji-chords. Once my iodine test confirms conversion, I unwrap it, sanitize my copper wort chiller and drop the temp to pitching temp. It usually takes me about 20 minutes to drop the temp from around 125-130°f down to 75°f. A few minutes of hard aeration with the mortar mixer, and the temp is down to 73 and I dump my yeast slurry in. How much insulation gets put back on depends on the temperature in the garage.
I monitor the temp with an inkbird, and adjust the insulation to try to minimize how much my heat pad has to work to keep my temps around 68°f.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

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Ice will cool it down quick.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by Setsumi »

myself let it cool pasively. takes about 7-8 hours to cool to 55C to pitch gluco and then i leave it overnight and pitch yeast in the morning. yes it is 24h that the procces takes but i am not busy all that time.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Windy City wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:40 pm Be careful cleaning that barrel. I had a blue 55 gal barrel that had a butro infection that I could not get rid of. I tried everything including long soaks in starsan, pbw, bleach and a few other cleaning remedies. No matter what I did the butro infection kept coming back. I finally just threw out that barrel.
A immersion chiller is definitely the way to go. I built one for Jimbo with 50’ of 1/2” id copper that works great for him. I pump mine through a tube and shell chiller I built that is 105’ of 3/4” id copper with a 1 1/4” shell.
I can't imagine the Butro smell leaving the barrel. So I may just throw it out. The reality is I have an extra and can get them used for like $20 because of all the manufacturing that takes place in my area. Guys that work at these manufacturing plants grab them by the dozen and sell them on craigslist for extra quick cash.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Thanks all. I truly hope newer people can learn from my experience. For some reason, I've been too dismissive of risk of infections. I think I read too many posts that talk about infections are more of a concern for beer and for distillers can be welcomed as we distill the mash at high temps anyways. While as not as big of a concern if making beer, moving forward I am definitely going to take steps to avoid it so I can get more consistent results in my product. Not to mention the wife isn't too pleased about the smell. She hasn't said anything but I just know. LOL
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Toxxyc wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:56 am Quick Q - after the mash, do you do a boil? .....
No. It was a 20 gallon on grain ferment.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by 8Ball »

Setsumi wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:53 am myself let it cool pasively. takes about 7-8 hours to cool to 55C to pitch gluco and then i leave it overnight and pitch yeast in the morning. yes it is 24h that the procces takes but i am not busy all that time.
+1

I let my AG mashes cool down until the next day as well. 16-18 hours is normal, longer in hot weather. Sometimes I leave the lid off and stretch a nylon paint strainer across the top to keep the flies off. I make my yeast starter the day before so its ready to pitch when the cool down is done.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by Deplorable »

8Ball wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:07 am
Setsumi wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:53 am myself let it cool pasively. takes about 7-8 hours to cool to 55C to pitch gluco and then i leave it overnight and pitch yeast in the morning. yes it is 24h that the procces takes but i am not busy all that time.
+1

I let my AG mashes cool down until the next day as well. 16-18 hours is normal, longer in hot weather. Sometimes I leave the lid off and stretch a nylon paint strainer across the top to keep the flies off. I make my yeast starter the day before so its ready to pitch when the cool down is done.
I let this current mash rest overnight and it was still 130°f after a night in the cold garage. Of course, I left it under a sleeping bag when I should have left in unwrapped all together. The first bourbon mash I did, I started at 0830, and pitched yeast before going to bed around 2230 I think.
This current ferment is 1 of 4 to make another 5 gallon barrel fill.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

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My mash usually takes around 24 hours to hit 125. That's as low as I wanna go after a previous bute infection. 10 minutes with the chiller coil and mixer I'll hit 90 for pitch.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

For those that have had the butyric infections, what percentage of the time does the mash clear up as it ferments? So far, I have simply read it "often" clears up and is salvageable.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

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WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:34 pm For those that have had the butyric infections, what percentage of the time does the mash clear up as it ferments? So far, I have simply read it "often" clears up and is salvageable.
One large failure, no recovery. Perhaps one day i'll give it the sulphuric acid treatment.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

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WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:34 pm For those that have had the butyric infections, what percentage of the time does the mash clear up as it ferments? So far, I have simply read it "often" clears up and is salvageable.
If you are patient, it will form ethyl butyrate, which is fruity and desirable, so the butyric acid smell is only really a problem if you are in a hurry or have the fermenter in the wrong place, like in your house. How long it takes will depend on ABV, pH and temperature.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

NZChris wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:41 pm
WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:34 pm For those that have had the butyric infections, what percentage of the time does the mash clear up as it ferments? So far, I have simply read it "often" clears up and is salvageable.
If you are patient, it will form ethyl butyrate, which is fruity and desirable, so the butyric acid smell is only really a problem if you are in a hurry or have the fermenter in the wrong place, like in your house. How long it takes will depend on ABV, pH and temperature.
Well, it is in the basement of my house in a back corner of the unfinished part. The smell does reach over to the finished part of the basement, but I'm the only one that hangs out there.

The mash is just starting to ferment out. But the SG was 1.06 so if it ferments out the ABV could be about 8%. I can adjust the PH to whatever it needs to be and same with the temp somewhat. What would be the optimal ABV, PH and Temp to help it along from butytric to ethyl butyrate? And under those optimal conditions, about how long would it take? Are we talking a couple extra days, weeks or months?
Thanks
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

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WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:04 pm
NZChris wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:41 pm
WithOrWithoutU2 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:34 pm For those that have had the butyric infections, what percentage of the time does the mash clear up as it ferments? So far, I have simply read it "often" clears up and is salvageable.
If you are patient, it will form ethyl butyrate, which is fruity and desirable, so the butyric acid smell is only really a problem if you are in a hurry or have the fermenter in the wrong place, like in your house. How long it takes will depend on ABV, pH and temperature.
Well, it is in the basement of my house in a back corner of the unfinished part. The smell does reach over to the finished part of the basement, but I'm the only one that hangs out there.

The mash is just starting to ferment out. But the SG was 1.06 so if it ferments out the ABV could be about 8%. I can adjust the PH to whatever it needs to be and same with the temp somewhat. What would be the optimal ABV, PH and Temp to help it along from butyric to ethyl butyrate? And under those optimal conditions, about how long would it take? Are we talking a couple extra days, weeks or months?
Thanks
Takes as long as it takes, depending on the natural acidity of the mash it could be weeks, if the conditions are right. Esterification happens where you have an organic acid (like butyric) a strong acid acid and an over abundance of ethyl alcohol. Assuming you have those elements, you can increase the rate of reaction by raising the temperature, else you need to wait.

This is what I was referring to above when I mentioned sulfuric acid, the stronger inorganic acid will quickly breakdown the butyric acid allowing it to esterify, usually in a boiler at a held temp directly before distillation.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

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It should be done in days, not weeks. If the pH is high, that might slow it down.
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Re: Another hard lesson - Temp would not drop to pitch yeast

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Thanks to all.

Update...The damn stuff would not ferment out. I could not get any real activity out of it. I suspect I may have degassed the mash when I was adjusting the PH by adding baking soda. I used a cement mixer to stir it in the baking soda and it frothed up BIG TIME. ANOTHER lesson learned. :ewink:

So this past Sunday, I just threw it all out. I don't mind the mistakes and redo's. But damn, this one was messy and discussing.
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