Reasons for slow fermentation?

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Ruoris
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Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by Ruoris »

So I kind of expected that if you do exactly the same things in the same order, that the results would be the same.

I went and got a 25kg bag of dextrose and have been working through it batch by batch. Over summer I was using Turbo Heat Yeast with good results. Nice quick fermentation cycle. Now the weather has cooled a bit I am using Turbo Pure and running my fermentation in a reasonably temperature controlled environment (never over 24 degrees) and the last two batches have just been real slow to ferment. Like over 2 weeks for a 6-7 day yeast.

I have a batch on now that has been burbling away for 12 days, and still bubbling at the same rate as day 1, about one blurp per 2-3 seconds.

Recipe is simple-as:
7kg dextrose
21l water
turbo yeast
carbon

I was doing this in the Fall with no problems.

Any suggestions for getting things moving? Am I putting in too much Dextrose? I'm following the directions on the packet.

(edited to change topic, I had a brain fart this morning and put "distillation" when I should have put "fermentation".)
Last edited by Ruoris on Tue May 04, 2021 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Stonecutter
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Re: Reasons for slow distillation?

Post by Stonecutter »

Is your question regarding fermentation or distillation? Two very different processes and “mechanisms”. Turbo yeast and “Turbo” products in general have a poor reputation here. I would go back through the “new distillers reading lounge” you will find many answers there. I’m also a novice here, some of the other OG’s may have a better answer for you.
Last edited by Stonecutter on Tue May 04, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reasons for slow distillation?

Post by StillerBoy »

Ruoris wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:53 pm So I kind of expected that if you do exactly the same things in the same order, that the results would be the same.
Yeah, that would be expected..
Ruoris wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:53 pm running my fermentation in a reasonably temperature controlled environment (never over 24 degrees) and the last two batches have just been real slow to ferment. Like over 2 weeks for a 6-7 day yeast.
Your issue is with fermentation temperature and ambient temp related.. fermentation required a stable temp during the fermenting period, especially in the first few days after pitching.. fluctuating temp will cause the issue you are experiencing, very slow to finish if it does..

What the SG at start, what is the SG at now..

"Never over 24 degrees", does not tell much about the fermenting temp..

Mars
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Re: Reasons for slow distillation?

Post by shadylane »

Ruoris wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:53 pm Am I putting in too much Dextrose? I'm following the directions on the packet
It doesn't matter what the directions says.
That's enough dextrose for a gravity of 1.175
1.070 would be better. :wink:
Somewhere around here is a post showing the best way to use turbo yeast.
That is, other than throwing it away :lol:

Here it is.
Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=10541
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Re: Reasons for slow distillation?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Ruoris wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:53 pm I went and got a 25kg bag of dextrose and have been working through it batch by batch.
Ruoris wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:53 pm I am using Turbo Pure
Seems to me your making the HBS owner rich fast, and spending unnecessary money on things you dont need.
No one here uses dextrose , you can buy sugar for much less and it does the same thing.
The same goes for Turbo products, cheap bread yeast,will make a better spirit than turdbo any day , you just need to find and follow one of our Tried and True recipes.
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Re: Reasons for slow distillation?

Post by Ruoris »

Stonecutter wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:15 pm Is your question regarding fermentation or distillation? Two very different processes and “mechanisms”. Turbo yeast and “Turbo” products in general have a poor reputation here. I would go back through the “new distillers reading lounge” you will find many answers there. I’m also a novice here, some of the other OG’s may have a better answer for you.
Oops. yes it is a fermentation question. I'll adjust the title if I can. My bad.

I know the rep of Turbo products here, I've been browsing these forums for a bit. They are just very convenient for me, as a beginner hobbyist. But I do see some people at least supporting us poor Turbo-slaves.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by Stonecutter »

I figured as much brotha. As has been said earlier. More info regarding temperatures and gravities will help the HD help you.
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Re: Reasons for slow distillation?

Post by Ruoris »

StillerBoy wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:21 pm Your issue is with fermentation temperature and ambient temp related.. fermentation required a stable temp during the fermenting period, especially in the first few days after pitching.. fluctuating temp will cause the issue you are experiencing, very slow to finish if it does..

What the SG at start, what is the SG at now..

"Never over 24 degrees", does not tell much about the fermenting temp..

Mars
So, after fermenting indoors with Turbo Heat, I managed to stink myself out of my on office (I work from home) so I moved production under the house. Over summer the Turbo Heat was fine. I'd watch for stable forecast and just let it go.

The first Turbo Pure, I also looked ahead for a window of a week with sub-24 degree outdoor temperatures. We had a period coming up with about 21-24 degrees expected. So I started in that zone. But then the fermentation just kept going and going and going. The weather got hotter, so I did the wet blanket and fan treatment to keep it cooler during the day. Never went below 21 at night. And after two weeks+ it stopped fermenting. I checked the SG and it was closer to 1000 than 990. I put the lid back on, and went away for a couple of days. When I came back it was dead on 990, so I ran it, and it was fine.

I figured the temperatures must have been out of range for it, so next batch I moved it back indoors into airconditioned space. I've stuck a thermometer on top to monitor it, and it is mainly around 22 degrees. Once overnight it got as low as 17. It never goes over 24. I never worked this hard with any other batch to keep the temperature stable, but the fermentation speed is the same as the last batch. Now at day 12 the SG is 1040.
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Re: Reasons for slow distillation?

Post by Ruoris »

shadylane wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:41 pm It doesn't matter what the directions says.
That's enough dextrose for a gravity of 1.175
1.070 would be better. :wink:
Somewhere around here is a post showing the best way to use turbo yeast.
That is, other than throwing it away :lol:

Here it is.
Better Method if you absolutely HAVE to use Turbo Yeast
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=10541
Thanks, I saw that thread previously I think. Basically he's cutting the packet down to smaller portions? Not sure how that works out. I'll re-read it.

And you're suggesting that the problem is maybe too much sugar/dextrose? OK, I'll try less next time.

I think I saw someone say something about putting tomato paste into the wash to fire up the fermentation. Was that a joke?
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by Windy City »

The tomato paste is not a joke it actually comes from a tried and true recipe.
This recipe has been a long time favorite for many distillers making neutral

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =14&t=5018.

I prefer Shady’s Sugar Shine

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 14&t=70585

It makes a super clean neutral
Most on this forum are trying to make the best quality product they can, hence you will not find many here promoting turbo or high gravity washes. Many start out where you are at but with time, reading and experience most move on to more tried and true recipes and/or methods
Good luck on your journey
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Ruoris wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:59 pm They are just very convenient for me, as a beginner hobbyist.
This one doesn't seem to be turning out the be very convenient.
Ruoris wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:12 pm I managed to stink myself out of my on office (I work from home) so I moved production under the house.
Have you considered that something that smells so bad that you cant bear to have it in the same room as yourself , might also make a very inferior booze?
I will guarantee that the washes that Windy has supplied links to will be able to be kept in your office .....and the booze that they make will be far better than what you are currently making.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by Ruoris »

Windy City wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:20 pm The tomato paste is not a joke it actually comes from a tried and true recipe.
This recipe has been a long time favorite for many distillers making neutral

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =14&t=5018.

I prefer Shady’s Sugar Shine

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 14&t=70585

It makes a super clean neutral
Most on this forum are trying to make the best quality product they can, hence you will not find many here promoting turbo or high gravity washes. Many start out where you are at but with time, reading and experience most move on to more tried and true recipes and/or methods
Good luck on your journey
Cool, thanks for that.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by StillerBoy »

Ruoris wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 7:12 pm So, after fermenting indoors with Turbo Heat, I managed to stink myself out of my on office (I work from home) so I moved production under the house. Over summer the Turbo Heat was fine. I'd watch for stable forecast and just let it go.
So what part of the APAC are located in.. for watching that the outdoor temp is right to ferment..

Turbo yeast will give you a much better result using less sugar like 170 gr. /L, and half the amount of yeast per a batch..

Still not the best compared to a simple sugar wash, but if you enjoy it, that's all that matters..

Mars
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by MartinCash »

I'd go one further than Mars and say: please try one of the simple sugar wash recipes from Tried&True and try using bread yeast (or whatever yeast it recommends). It's hard to know how your product compares, or how much better it could be, without having tried other ways of doing things.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

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StillerBoy wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 12:18 pm Turbo yeast will give you a much better result using less sugar like 170 gr. /L, and half the amount of yeast per a batch..

Still not the best compared to a simple sugar wash, but if you enjoy it, that's all that matters..

Mars
Thanks Stillerboy. I'm definitely going to try a different sugar ratio and less yeast next time.

I'm not the kind of perfectionist that I want to pursue other washes just yet. I'm really happy with the output I've had so far, and just tinkering with what I've got. Audience of one, and he's pretty satisfied so far, if you know what I mean. Fermenting definitely seems more art than science to many people here. I enjoy reading the recipes but even the "simple" ones make my brain ache a bit :eugeek:

I am also limited by my equipment. No doubt I will extend myself in the future though.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by MartinCash »

Just to stress what SBB said: sugar works just as well as dextrose for a small fraction of the price, and turbo yeast is less good than bread yeast and costs much more. Sounds to me like the homebrew shop owner has done a fantastic sales job to convince you to use what you're using.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by shadylane »

Ruoris wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:46 pm I'm definitely going to try a different sugar ratio and less yeast next time.
That and keep the fermenter around 25' - 30'c
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by Archee72 »

Ruoris wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:46 pm I enjoy reading the recipes but even the "simple" ones make my brain ache a bit :eugeek:
Wineos sugar wash is easy peasy and sure to be cheaper than your Turbo ingredients? Very neutral too.
But go with what you like.
But if you haven’t tried the T & T recipes you won’t know.....

Cheers, Arch
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by Ruoris »

It's another 8 days later and my wash is still fermenting. Maybe I stirred it all together too much at the beginning? Ah well. Live and learn.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

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How can you stir it to much at the begining? What effect would that have?
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

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Ruoris wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:46 pm It's another 8 days later and my wash is still fermenting.
What is the SG at.. how to you know the fermentation is still on going..

Mars
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

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Ruoris wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:46 pm It's another 8 days later and my wash is still fermenting. Maybe I stirred it all together too much at the beginning? Ah well. Live and learn.
I don't think you can stir too much. In fact, not enough stirring or other aeration at the start could be the problem. Perhaps you never got enough yeast multiplication at the start so you have a slow ferment.

Yeast need three things to multiply, food (sugar), nutrients (mostly nitrogen but also some potassium, calcium and other minerals, and oxygen. Your dextrose supplies the sugar, turbo is supposed to have nutrients in with the pack although you might look into some Fermaid K in the future, and you need to oxygenate your wash at the start by stirring, dumping back and forth, using an air source and a aeration stone, or pure O2 and a stone.

After the yeast multiply, usually in the first 24 hrs, then you want the anaerobic environment, closed with an air lock so the yeast stop multiplying and start making CO2 and our friend alcohol. They also make other esters and by products but that is a tale for another day.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by vandaemon »

I'm a complete nooby here, I've done one wash and then used a borrowed air still to see if this was something I could really be bothered doing. For this audience of one the result was surprisingly good. I wasn't expecting anything palatable given the truly disgusting home distilled stuff I've come across.

I'm really a beer homebrewer and able to accurately control the temperature of my ferments in a fermentation fridge providing heating and cooling controlled using a sensor inside a thermowell. I don't have an answer for Ruoris' question since I really don't know the yeast well enough. I do however have an observation and some questions.

Despite the fact that the Still Spirits Turbo Pure pack says fermentation takes 6-7 days, my first batch of table sugar wash took around 12 days to go to a stable FG of 0.991 from an OG of 1.092. The temperature of the wash was not permitted to rise above 23.0°C even though it wanted to naturally go above that. At FG the temperature had fallen to 17.6°C. By mistake I pitched the yeast at 27.4°C but cooled it to 22.9°C over about 5 hours.

Observation: in common with Ruoris I was concerned about how long fermentation was taking (given what the manufacturer claims) but since the outcome was satisfactory I won't stress with the wash I am about to start today. In my experience yeast will tell me when it's ready and unnecessarily stressing it leads to unwanted outcomes.

Very basic nooby questions: What is the optimum temperature at which to pitch Still Spirits Turbo Pure yeast? What is the optimum fermentation temperature of the wash (not the ambient temperature but the wash internal temperature)? What is the optimum OG and what is a reasonable FG to aim for?

Sorry Ruoris that I could not help more directly with your query.
Totally a noob so please be gentle with me and please excuse the ignorance. "Trust, but verify."
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by StillerBoy »

vandaemon wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:49 pm Despite the fact that the Still Spirits Turbo Pure pack says fermentation takes 6-7 days, my first batch of table sugar wash took around 12 days to go to a stable FG of 0.991 from an OG of 1.092. The temperature of the wash was not permitted to rise above 23.0°C even though it wanted to naturally go above that. At FG the temperature had fallen to 17.6°C. By mistake I pitched the yeast at 27.4°C but cooled it to 22.9°C over about 5 hours.
The fermenting temp mention are not the best temp.. next time pitch at 29C and maintain a 27C, and you'll get much better results, and at those temp, should be done in 4 days..

Also you may want to reduce the sugar level to 1.070 and use just half of the turbo pack for the same amount of water.. you'll get a better result overall..

But there are much better sugar wash recipes in the T & T section of the board index..

Mars
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

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StillerBoy wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 6:15 pm The fermenting temp mention are not the best temp.. next time pitch at 29C and maintain a 27C, and you'll get much better results, and at those temp, should be done in 4 days..But there are much better sugar wash recipes in the T & T section of the board index..
Thanks for the response StillerBoy, much appreciated. The reason for the 23.0°C SP was that Still Spirits packaging specifies required "Air Temp Range" as 18-24°C. Since I don't work with ambient temperature but liquid temperature that was too vague for me. I went with what I assumed would be the effect of maximum air temperature range on the liquid and guessed ambient temp -1°C. They also say "Water Start Temp" (before the addition of sugar) should be 30°C which is almost meaningless. I believe I had seen somewhere that the addition of sugar was meant to bring the temp down to 25°C (but can't find the reference) hence my fear I had pitched too hot and perhaps retarded yeast growth.

I will do as you suggest and look for better sugar wash recipes on the board. Cheers again.
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Re: Reasons for slow fermentation?

Post by StillerBoy »

vandaemon wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 7:11 pm I went with what I assumed would be the effect of maximum air temperature range on the liquid and guessed ambient temp -1°C. They also say "Water Start Temp" (before the addition of sugar) should be 30°C which is almost meaningless. I believe I had seen somewhere that the addition of sugar was meant to bring the temp down to 25°C (but can't find the reference) hence my fear
It's best to dissolve the sugars in a couple of gal at 50C then reduce the temp to pitching temp..

Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "

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