How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

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jayka
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How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by jayka »

I recently went to decant my barrel and found my 4.5lt had turned into 2.5. I know I have had a few sips but didn't expect that much. I then checked my other barrel and pretty sure it had 6-7lt (the only barrel I didn't record total of) and it's down to 4lt. I did find it had a tiny weep at back I wasn't aware of but still seems pretty excessive. Father in law just topped up his said it took 600ml and it's only been 3 months. Am I missing something or this this normal?
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by 8Ball »

Generally speaking, yes, that is normal for a very small cask. I topped off my 5G cask recently (after 12 months of its 3 year aging cycle) with 65% rum. It took a little over a gallon to do so.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Butch27 »

To this day I still just mostly drink white dog aged in glass. I have played with some wood chips a little but am happy with the white. I have no intention of making spirits for the angels.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by bluefish_dist »

Big barrels 6-8% per year. Smaller a lot faster than that. From a 15, I would lose 1-2 gallons per year and some on the fill as the barrel soaks up a gallon or more.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by 8Ball »

Butch27 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:01 am To this day I still just mostly drink white dog aged in glass. I have played with some wood chips a little but am happy with the white. I have no intention of making spirits for the angels.
The OP is asking for advice on how different sized casks affect the aging cycle relative to evaporation loss. Funny how you called me out the other day about ‘making generalizations’ that don’t fit the OP narrative but yet here you are making a generalization about your drinking preferences. :)
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Butch27 »

8Ball wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:46 am
Butch27 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:01 am To this day I still just mostly drink white dog aged in glass. I have played with some wood chips a little but am happy with the white. I have no intention of making spirits for the angels.
The OP is asking for advice on how different sized casks affect the aging cycle relative to evaporation loss. Funny how you called me out the other day about ‘making generalizations’ that don’t fit the OP narrative but yet here you are making a generalization about your drinking preferences. :)
For the record I was not "calling anybody out", nor do I understand the point you are trying to make here, nor do I care. Maybe my communication skills are not the best but my God everyone takes offense so easily these days. I believe some people critically look at absolutely everything to see how it can offend them.

For the record going forward if I see you have posted in a thread, I will not bother as I have no desire to get into a pissing contest every time I post something. I generally try to help people out if I can and I did have a relevant thought on this problem but screw it as I have no desire to have any further dealings with you.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

With that size barrel it's not surprising. Also depends on the quality of barrel, some are better than others.

The "sips" also are deceiving. But you do need good QC.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Sailman »

I lost a gallon in 4 months on a new 5 gallon barrel. A lot of that was due to the fact that I didn't soak the barrel long enough and a had a fairly substantial leak. My plan is to wax the end grain of the staves and around the barrel head and try again.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by jayka »

IMALOSERSCUMBAG wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:39 am With that size barrel it's not surprising. Also depends on the quality of barrel, some are better than others.

The "sips" also are deceiving. But you do need good QC.
I will not admit to anything but there may have been a little bit lost to sippage
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Hambone »

Sips add up...
Good judgement is the result of experience.

Experience is usually the result of bad judgement..
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Deplorable »

Hambone wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:21 pm Sips add up...
Truth. I limit my sampling to once a month max, and only pull an ounce. Take a picture, take a sip, and pour it back in. When it gets close to being where I think it's ready, I'll pull enough to dilute to 50% and judge it and savor the drop. I'm still 6 to 7 months away from that.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Tummydoc »

5 gallon redhead barrels seam to lose 50% over 1-2 years in the arid inland PNW. I have two Balcones barrels (when they were getting away from 5 gallon and liquidating their unused stock). They have lost 20% at a year. Not sure who made theirs but they have imparted better flavor with less loss.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Toxxyc »

Guys, stupid question, but why can't we design or build a barrel that's a bit more waterproof? I know the evaporation aids with the quality of the spirit with the volatiles being aired off, but can't someone design like a barrel cover that you can slip over the barrel after that initial volatiles are gone?

So say after 6 months or so you slip the barrel into a sleeve that tightens around the barrel, keeping all the moisture in?
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Saltbush Bill »

At what age do you consider enough volatiles gone ?
You will get about a million different answers to that is my feeling.
Personaly I'll just let the angels keep drinking what they want and make enough to top up the barrel occasionally.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Kindafrench »

Put a wet towel over the barrel. Renew time by time to prevent mold or whatever contamination of the wood. I‘m quite sure this will prevent some losses but could also have an impact on flavour development. I never did that though. It‘s just an idea.
Putting the barrel in a spot where temperature changes and too much heat doesn‘t draw lots of spirit might help, too.

My 30 liter barrel lost about 10 percent over a year, standing in the kitchen with +-3 °C temperature fluctuation maximum.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Toxxyc »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 12:41 am At what age do you consider enough volatiles gone ?
You will get about a million different answers to that is my feeling.
Personaly I'll just let the angels keep drinking what they want and make enough to top up the barrel occasionally.
No I'm sure that's a thing, but then you can decide, no? I know some people cut wider and then depend on age to smooth it out, but if you cut really narrow and safe, you know age won't have to smooth out too much so you can wrap it sooner. I don't know, I'm just asking. I don't have a barrel (yet) and at this point I'm really scared of getting one. Losing a gallon here or there is a lot of booze to me.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by jonnys_spirit »

One thing to keep in mind is that when the angels take their share from the barrel the portion they leave behind becomes more concentrated with respect to flavors. Sort of like making a reduction sauce but on a different scale and timeframe.

I feel that many spirit producers would like to keep their angels share. Aging in glass with pieces of oak does prevent this.

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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Toxxyc »

Yeah I didn't think about that. I'm just asking because I like asking, and I'd like to know why. I've got a curious personality.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by still_stirrin »

Ambient conditions affect shrinkage. The barometric pressure and relative humidity will determine what evaporates, alcohol or water, and to what extent. Hot humid environments will draw out alcohol. But cool arid environments will draw out water. So, the proof can go down or up. And the cask’s surface area and ullage does affect the rate of loss.

I’ve had a small 10 liter cask aging in the winter (in the cellar) and the proof has risen by 3 to 4%ABV. And I’ve had another small cask drop 4 to 5%ABV in the same cellar through the summer. And ironically, the cellar temperature is quite constant throughout the year. But obviously the barometric pressure changes regularly (cloudy days and sunny days are an indication, right?) and the corresponding relative humidity will vary as well.

Now, it is impossible to predict how much shrinkage any one cask will experience, but it will happen. I check the aging process periodically to monitor progress, and I do top it up when I do this. A jar of white whiskey kept on hand is wise to have for this purpose.

To any and all new hobbiests, the aging process is a fundamental component of “the art”, so how you do it will reflect in your artistry as much as the recipe, your brewing and fermentation processes, the still, and your distillation and cut processes.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by howie »

i've been looking at starting a small 3 x barrel solera type thing for rum.
SS is correct.
from what i'm reading, temperature, humidity, wind/air flow, barrel size all seem to play in part in how much alcohol or water you lose.
one scottish distillery still keep their barrels on a gravel floor (dunnage?).
my area is hot & dry with low humidity so i should lose water(?) and slightly raise the abv.
anyway, the cost of buying 3 x barrels is something i may have to run past HID :problem: ,when she's in a good mood.
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by jayka »

still_stirrin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:14 am . Hot humid environments will draw out alcohol. But cool arid environments will draw out water. So, the proof can go down or up. And the cask’s surface area and ullage does affect the rate of loss.
I tested my rye the other day. I was barreled at 55% and is now 60%
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by Deplorable »

jayka wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:59 am
still_stirrin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:14 am . Hot humid environments will draw out alcohol. But cool arid environments will draw out water. So, the proof can go down or up. And the cask’s surface area and ullage does affect the rate of loss.
I tested my rye the other day. I was barreled at 55% and is now 60%
Better to lose water than alcohol. By chance did you consider any temperature difference between ABV readings?
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Re: How much you expect to loose ageing in barrels

Post by jayka »

Deplorable wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:50 am
jayka wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:59 am
still_stirrin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:14 am . Hot humid environments will draw out alcohol. But cool arid environments will draw out water. So, the proof can go down or up. And the cask’s surface area and ullage does affect the rate of loss.
I tested my rye the other day. I was barreled at 55% and is now 60%
Better to lose water than alcohol. By chance did you consider any temperature difference between ABV readings?
No I didn't actually but I doubt it would have been much. I was happy to see it had gone up. I think it maybe due to aircon causing the evaporation of water.
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