To stir ........ or not?

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stogie
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To stir ........ or not?

Post by stogie »

New hobbyist .... 1st batch fermentation process begins tomorrow. I've not read much at all about 'stirring' the mash after yeast introduction. A couple of posts mention sprinkling on the yeast and letting it settle (the method I use with wine). Maybe a couple of other posts say to stir the mash well after yeast introduction. And I saw one post saying he/she stirred the mash daily for the 1st three days. So, 'real people', what are your thoughts?

Same topic (sort of): I read a small bit about creating a yeast starter .... but not much info on this either. In some docs I've read that temp above 80 degrees F will kill the yeast. But, the starter process includes adding yeast to hot water. (?) And, the starter process seems to involve transferring mash from bucket to bucket a couple of times. This seems like mega-stirring !?!

Thanx for the help!! This new guy is learning tons from this site!
Toxxyc
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by Toxxyc »

So the only reason I would stir the wash after adding the yeast is if I can see that the yeast clumps up and did not dissolve. I solve this with starters in my beers. In my distillation washes I don't really care, I pitch more than enough yeast anyway.

Some people stir in order to introduce oxygen into the wash. Oxygen allows yeast to reproduce faster, so if you don't pitch a large colony this can help quite a bit, although an air pump with a diffusal stone is probably a better idea.

I don't stir at all, be it beer or distillation washes. I pitch more than enough yeast and with my beers these days I make starters anyway to get the lag time down as low as humanly possible. A starter is essentially a small batch of wash or beer that you make away from the large one. This little 2 litre or 3 litre container with a low-gravity solution will be warmed (not heated) to around 30°C to 35°C into which you pitch your yeast. You will stir and shake it as much as possible while keeping the temperature in the yeast's comfortable range (typically around 25°C) for about 24 to 36 hours to give the yeast time to grow in numbers as much as possible. This entire slurry is then pitched into your beer or wash.

People typically use stir plates (sometimes heated stir plates) to do this, with very very good success, but a shaking starter also works.
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by JesseMarques »

stogie wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:23 am Same topic (sort of): I read a small bit about creating a yeast starter .... but not much info on this either. In some docs I've read that temp above 80 degrees F will kill the yeast.But, the starter process includes adding yeast to hot water. (?) And, the starter process seems to involve transferring mash from bucket to bucket a couple of times. This seems like mega-stirring !?!

Thanx for the help!! This new guy is learning tons from this site!
This yeast addition to hot water is to kill the yeast and provide nutrients to the fermentation. You do it before you pitch the yeast that will ferment, this one must be kept at lower temps
stillanoob
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by stillanoob »

I toss in the yeast, give a quick stir, close the lid and leave it alone.
StillerBoy
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by StillerBoy »

stogie wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:23 am New hobbyist .... 1st batch fermentation process begins tomorrow. I've not read much at all about 'stirring' the mash after yeast introduction. A couple of posts mention sprinkling on the yeast and letting it settle (the method I use with wine). Maybe a couple of other posts say to stir the mash well after yeast introduction. And I saw one post saying he/she stirred the mash daily for the 1st three days. So, 'real people', what are your thoughts?
You are not stating much.. is it a wash or a mash, as there is a big different.. what the ingredient list, volumne..

For a sugar wash, sprinkle the yeast on top, give it 45 min, then stir the wash.. pitch at 85*F, ferment at 80*F.. start Ph at 5.5, and check Ph at the 12th and 24 hr mark.. and make sure you have the right ingredients..

As for a starter, not really required for a sugar wash went using bread yeast..

Mars
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howie
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by howie »

stirring every day for 3 days - this sounds like people using angel yeast, which recommends this method.
bakers yeast can stand higher temps, i have hydrated bakers yeast at 35c (95F) with no problem.
other yeasts - read the packet or consult manufacturers instructions.
i usually hydrate my yeast before adding, some people sprinkle.
some stir (with paint stirrers) before adding yeast, some after adding yeast.
if something works, you tend to repeat.
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

On my AG ferments I'll punch the cap just like my wines a couple times a day. I think of it like making tea and want all those grains that form the cap to mix in often - until it drops which is when it's mostly done..

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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by Setsumi »

make a starter as Toxxyc says... it could be with straight water, some table sugar or a bit watered down mash/wash. yeast like warm environment... like blood warm... in the pandemic blood warm is betweem 34 and 36dC.

a starter will also help with the muck left behinde after the krausen.
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by HDNB »

on a large-ish batch of rye malt fermented/distilled on the grain, i have found that a lot of stirring is a benefit to both speed and yield.


i know i'm supposed to give quantifiable data with that...but you'll just have to take me at my word. faster, more juice.
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by SmokyMtn »

If you have done your part. Yeast doesn't want or need your help. Leave it alone
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I'll take HDNB's advice if I ever get the urge to get a large ferment of malted rye going, He might know just a little about such things I have a feeling.
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by Windy City »

I agree with HDNB, on larger mashes.
I have a mixer on my kettle that is controlled by a VFD.
From start of mash through fermentation and then some it never turns off.
When I am mashing I will have the VFD at 40%, when I pitch my yeast I will turn it down to 20% for 15 min then back up to 40% for a half hour while I am injecting air through a built in air stone. After aerating the mash everything gets sealed up with the exception of my blow off pipe and I turn the mixer back down to 20% for the remainder of the ferment. I know many on this site are always worried about keeping their ferment warm but I have found at a larger ferment I have to control the cooling of the ferment. My chiller will be busy for the first three days of ferment and the mixing helps keep an even temperature throughout the kettle as well as keeping everything in suspension.
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HDNB
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by HDNB »

Windy City wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:38 am I agree with HDNB, on larger mashes.
I have a mixer on my kettle that is controlled by a VFD.
From start of mash through fermentation and then some it never turns off.
When I am mashing I will have the VFD at 40%, when I pitch my yeast I will turn it down to 20% for 15 min then back up to 40% for a half hour while I am injecting air through a built in air stone. After aerating the mash everything gets sealed up with the exception of my blow off pipe and I turn the mixer back down to 20% for the remainder of the ferment. I know many on this site are always worried about keeping their ferment warm but I have found at a larger ferment I have to control the cooling of the ferment. My chiller will be busy for the first three days of ferment and the mixing helps keep an even temperature throughout the kettle as well as keeping everything in suspension.
that is exactly what i find on the large-ish ferments. took me a while to figure out the stalls i was getting was from too much self generated heat.
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StillerBoy
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by StillerBoy »

HDNB wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:02 am that is exactly what i find on the large-ish ferments. took me a while to figure out the stalls i was getting was from too much self generated heat.
That method/process also applies to large sugar wash (80L and up), at the very least, a light stir twice a day.. the heat built up is the principle cause of a stall and if it doesn't stall, it will not finish dry..

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HDNB
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by HDNB »

StillerBoy wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:19 am
HDNB wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:02 am that is exactly what i find on the large-ish ferments. took me a while to figure out the stalls i was getting was from too much self generated heat.
That method/process also applies to large sugar wash (80L and up), at the very least, a light stir twice a day.. the heat built up is the principle cause of a stall and if it doesn't stall, it will not finish dry..

Mars
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StillerBoy
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by StillerBoy »

Windy City wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:38 am I know many on this site are always worried about keeping their ferment warm but I have found at a larger ferment I have to control the cooling of the ferment. My chiller will be busy for the first three days of ferment and the mixing helps keep an even temperature throughout the kettle as well as keeping everything in suspension.
Part of the reason ferment temp go out of control, is due in part to pitching at to high a temp..

Large batch, any things over 60L should not be pitched over 80*F when using bread yeast.. as the yeast will within 2 - 3 hrs, due to their activity, will have started the temp to raise, and it not uncommon to have an 5 - 10 degree rise in temp..

If pitched at 90 - 95*F, it will cross the 100* mark, and for some unknown reason yet known to me, the ferment will work it way down some, then slow right down to a stall.. I have since changed my pitching process to start at 80*F, and it will easily rise to 86 - 88*F, and stay there for 1 - 1.5 days before starting to come down, at which time I allow it to come down to 80* and if need be, start the heat belt for a day or so to maintain the temp.. usually the batch is done by the time it comes back to that temp.. the temp indicated are using an ambient temp of 68*F, which is also an important factor to consider when starting a ferment, not just the size of the batch..

Failure to monitor the temp of the fermenting batch, is the main issue with stalling or not finishing dry, not stirring.. I have found that stirring actually improves fermentation process.. again, providing all the other requirements are met for the yeast to do their job, meaning, the right amount of food, and a stable Ph level..

A good stir once the a ferment reaches an SG of 1.000, it will assist it finishing off and clearing.. I give the batch a good degassing stir at that level..

Mars
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howie
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by howie »

funnily enough, my last 2 x FFV's were put in my new fermentation fridge while i was still waiting for my latest Inkbird to arrive, so i thought i'd just let them go.
i monitored temps using the stick-on strips (accuracy?)
yeast pitched with wash 32C (89F)
next day it was at 38C (100F), where it stayed for about 2 days, dropping to 36C (96F) on the 3rd day.
then gradually dropping every day to 28C (82F)
ambient temps were 30C day, 20C at night.
the inkbird will sort that out (usually set to 31/32C)
after a week the visibility was about halfway down the wash.
SB - i might try the degassing stir near the finish (a degassing not aeration)
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by StillerBoy »

howie.. where's the SG in all your testing..

Temp is important, but I would like to know where the SG is at..

Bet it's far from being finished, even after a week, and even if there is visibility/clearing halfway..

Mars
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howie
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Re: To stir ........ or not?

Post by howie »

StillerBoy wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:09 am howie.. where's the SG in all your testing..

Temp is important, but I would like to know where the SG is at..

Bet it's far from being finished, even after a week, and even if there is visibility/clearing halfway..

Mars
i didn't state the SG/FG as i thought the thread was more about temp.
but if you insist :) SG was 1.060 and 7 days later it was 0.992.
from memory, i think it was 0.990 when i stripped it, a few days later.
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