Learning to make cuts.

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Deplorable
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Deplorable »

Good plan on the jars, and the nosing glass. I fill pint jars about 1/2 to 3/4 full. I feel like it holds the smell. A Glencairn glass is always used to sample both individual jars and blends.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Pops33 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:41 am I think I flunked.
Regardless of what method you use, it is wise to make up a sample of your proposed final choice and make sure that it's what you really want before committing the jars to one vessel.

Personally, I no longer use this method as it has caused me to make mistakes in the past. Even though I rinse and use a spittoon, tasting large numbers of individual jars buggers up my senses before I get to confirm my final selection. If I already have tails on my breath from tasting a nasty jar, I can easily miss excess tails when checking my final selection.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Took me a while to workout that an individual jar can be below the threshold of what I find unpalatable when sampled in isolation, but in the final vatting, the balance gets tipped when those undesirable compounds/flavours accumulate with the combined jars.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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SaltyStaves wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:52 pm Took me a while to workout that an individual jar can be below the threshold of what I find unpalatable when sampled in isolation, but in the final vatting, the balance gets tipped when those undesirable compounds/flavours accumulate with the combined jars.
+1 This bit me in the arse more than a time or three.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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NZChris wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:36 pm
Pops33 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:41 am I think I flunked.
Regardless of what method you use, it is wise to make up a sample of your proposed final choice and make sure that it's what you really want before committing the jars to one vessel.
Agreed,
That's what my wife said to do in our next batch.
Would filter it through charcoal filter remove the off taste? I have a buono wine filter system I can put charcoal filters in instead of the ones used for wine filtering.
SaltyStaves wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:52 pm Took me a while to workout that an individual jar can be below the threshold of what I find unpalatable when sampled in isolation, but in the final vatting, the balance gets tipped when those undesirable compounds/flavours accumulate with the combined jars.
Could one of those unpalatable jars be in the middle somewhere?

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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Pops33 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:04 pm Could one of those unpalatable jars be in the middle somewhere?
Highly unlikely. All of the jars contain all of the same flavor components, some starting high and finishing low, some starting low and finishing high. If you have a unpalatable jar in the middle, whatever is making it nasty will be spread through the jars either before it, or after it, or if you are really badly out of luck, both.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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NZChris wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:35 pm
Pops33 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 8:04 pm Could one of those unpalatable jars be in the middle somewhere?
Highly unlikely. All of the jars contain all of the same flavor components, some starting high and finishing low, some starting low and finishing high. If you have a unpalatable jar in the middle, whatever is making it nasty will be spread through the jars either before it, or after it, or if you are really badly out of luck, both.
There is one thing I know of that can cause an unpalatable jar in the middle. If you muck around too much with power/reflux/takeoff during the run, the collection jar that is in place when you make those changes can be off compared to the jars around it. Otis
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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OtisT wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:45 am There is one thing I know of that can cause an unpalatable jar in the middle. If you muck around too much with power/reflux/takeoff during the run, the collection jar that is in place when you make those changes can be off compared to the jars around it. Otis
Thanks OtisT,
I did mess a little bit with the controller. I'll keep that in mind for next runs.

thanks
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Pops33 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:44 pm I did mess a little bit with the controller. I'll keep that in mind for next runs.
When asking questions, or describing experiences, making sure that everyone is on the same page is very helpful. Confusion and bad advice often occur because newbies and helpers have made assumptions regarding a choice of reflux/pot/thumper/etc.. :(
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Demy »

Great tips to start with, well done. I would just like to add a little hint that I have discovered with experience: when you have to smell, take a few drops and pass them on your hands or on the back of a stainless steel spoon, the smell will be sharper than smelling from the jar.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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NZChris wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:46 pm
Pops33 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:44 pm I did mess a little bit with the controller. I'll keep that in mind for next runs.
When asking questions, or describing experiences, making sure that everyone is on the same page is very helpful. Confusion and bad advice often occur because newbies and helpers have made assumptions regarding a choice of reflux/pot/thumper/etc.. :(
Thanks Chris,
I was going to write all the amperage setting changes I did through out the run but I thought it was going to be too much info and too long, plus someone might say keep it on topic! It would not have been specific to the topic but it is related if changes are made during the run that potentially affects the flavor of a jar and decisions to include that jar in the keepers or not. Having said that, posts made in this topic and many others I read, brings many questions that I have, but I'm not sure whether to continue to post in the current thread(topic), create a new thread, or post in the thread that's already been created(in this case Gerber because this is what I made) but might not be specifically related to it but in way, it is.
So, for my set up, I have an all copper 10 gl pot still, thumper and condenser with a 240volt 3800 watt heating element controlled by a dial for amperage adjustment. Goes from 0 amp to 15.1amp(full power). When the amperage is dialed in to a specific amp, ... say 5.0amp, sometimes it will show 0.1 amp higher or lower than the setting, i.e. 4.9 or 5.1 amp. Could this small amp fluctuation create unwanted/unpalatable flavors?
At the beginning of this run, I cranked it to 10.4 amp until temp reached ~150F, dialed it down to 6.8 amp. When drips came out I dial it down down to 4.7amp for heads collection. When I thought the hearts collection was starting I dialed it up to 5.9 amp for the rest of the run.

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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I think very slight the amperage fluctuations are a result of the heating of the element which slightly changes the resistance and power over a small'ish time period.. I observe this as well - It's minimal and normal.

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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by kimbodious »

Pops, treat it as a practice run and re-run it. Neutral on a pot still could do with an extra distillation anyway. This time why not bring the heat up slowly that way you are not having to bring the liquid back down to a suitable rate of boiling.

There’s a lot of parameters and attributes that you can get distracted by in measuring. Why not relax and just work on managing the power level to the boiler until you are just getting an initial unfaltering stream of liquid aka the “pencil-lead sized stream”. Don’t run it when you are pushed for time. It takes as long as it needs to take. I practise the low and slow method

Four litres is a big heads fraction. I suspect that you were running the still on a higher power level than you should for a neutral run on a pot. If your liquid is boiling really violently you increase the level of what is called smearing where heads hearts and tails are mingled much more in the output than they need to be.

Try the low and slow method and you may find detecting the changes between heads hearts and tails will be easier.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Pops33 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:44 pm
OtisT wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:45 am There is one thing I know of that can cause an unpalatable jar in the middle. If you muck around too much with power/reflux/takeoff during the run, the collection jar that is in place when you make those changes can be off compared to the jars around it. Otis
Thanks OtisT,
I did mess a little bit with the controller. I'll keep that in mind for next runs.

thanks
Pops33
You are running a pot still, not a reflux still, so all you can fiddle with is the power. It's highly unlikely that you would create a nasty jar in the middle of a pot still run by messing with the power. A burst at full power with an oversized element might do it, but I'll let someone else do that experiment.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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My feeling is that your going to battle to make anything like a neutral using a pot anyway........there are those who claim they can......Ive yet to taste the evidence.
Your going to have to distill at least 3 times making cuts each time to even get close.
You will need to run only what you chose as hearts each time and adding some water to cut it back to 28-30ish will help to.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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I've made a lot of gin using only pots. As long as the choice of wash is compatible with, or complements, the type of product you are aiming for, you can get away with using double pot distilled base spirit.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Pops33 wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:44 pm
OtisT wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:45 am There is one thing I know of that can cause an unpalatable jar in the middle. If you muck around too much with power/reflux/takeoff during the run, the collection jar that is in place when you make those changes can be off compared to the jars around it. Otis
Thanks OtisT,
I did mess a little bit with the controller. I'll keep that in mind for next runs.

thanks
Pops33
As a beginner learning cuts, leaving the power steady during the run will help you a lot. Consistent power on a pot should result in a nice steady progression of smells and tastes from jar to jar. It’s not that you can’t do it, but it does make comparing jars more confusing to the unexperienced.

Maybe consider adding power settings to your spreadsheet and note if/when you adjust the power next to the jar when you make the power change. That is how I found that changing the power level during a run can impact the smell of current collection jar. Like you, I was logging everything for a few year in SSs on a jar by jar basis. That included power settings, output rate, jar volume, ABV, vapor temp, what I smelled in the air, etc. I also made my cut notes on taste/smell next to each jar. It was easy to see the pattern when I wrote it all out. Once you find your own method for identifying cut points, you can ditch the logging and just enjoy your free time between jar swaps. :D

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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

This is a great thread. When I first stumbled across this site, I feel like I actually may have read a bit too many threads... I kept reading stuff about making wider cuts from some of the experts on here and that was my biggest mistake early on because I lacked the expertise. My posts don’t indicate it, but I’ve been stillin A LOT of batches and have learned a ton from trial and error. I was lucky enough to find someone in my homebrew club who happens to be an amazing secret distiller. I had him try one of my UJSSM bottles and he cringed. Told me what I considered wide, was very wide. Tails can have some fantastic flavors buried in there, but man, it can be a trap if you make something with the intention of drinking it sooner than later without oak. He gave me the advice to not be greedy, even if my keeper jars were less than I wanted, since I can save those “almost hearts jars” for my next run and not really view it as wasted effort. Since then, I’ve made some great spirits.

One big piece of advice I can give is to avoid ANY heads jars! Even the slightest bit of late heads will overpower the rest of your jars once you do your final blend.

Also, a bigger boiler charge makes resolution between jars so much easier to detect, which is why I built a keg boiler so soon after starting the hobby. Should have done it right from the start.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

Thanks again all, I really appreciate everyone chiming in and giving advice.

Alright, here comes the questions:
Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:55 pm Your going to have to distill at least 3 times making cuts each time to even get close.
You will need to run only what you chose as hearts<-- So no feints, only hearts? each time and adding some water to cut it back to 28-30ish will help to.
I saw a post from NZChris that 24% low wines vs 40% low wines will give you different heart cuts. Can you elaborate on this? https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=83081
kimbodious wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 12:46 pm Pops, treat it as a practice run and re-run it. Neutral on a pot still could do with an extra distillation anyway. This time why not bring the heat up slowly that way you are not having to bring the liquid back down to a suitable rate of boiling.

....work on managing the power level to the boiler until you are just getting an initial unfaltering stream of liquid aka the “pencil-lead sized stream”. <---When running it, I had a difficult time getting that pencil-lead sized stream, unlike my previous distillation runs. It was a bit bigger and swinging a bit. Could the cooling water to the condenser affect this? The water coming in was 8 deg C. The distillate coming out was 13 deg C.

Four litres is a big heads fraction. I suspect that you were running the still on a higher power level than you should for a neutral run on a pot. <---I'll post the spreadsheet at the bottom so you can see the power setting I used.
Here's the spread sheet.
gerber spirit run notes.JPG


Big thanks to Saltbush Bill for creating this thread.

Thank you all,
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Pops33 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:55 pm I saw a post from NZChris that 24% low wines vs 40% low wines will give you different heart cuts. Can you elaborate on this? https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=83081
Low abv strips are great for capturing flavors. Use them for whiskey, rum, brandy, etc.. If you are trying to make 'neutral' using a pot still, shutting down the strips much earlier will help. Some shut down getting 50% low wines, but I aim for 40%.

Don't confuse low wines abv with abv at the spout when posting, or reading posts. There are a lot of posts where the posters haven't made it clear whether they are quoting the abv of the total low wine collection, or the parrot abv. It makes a huge difference on spirit run day. I put my alcometer in a receiver large enough to take a whole strip.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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NZChris wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:06 am
Don't confuse low wines abv with abv at the spout when posting, or reading posts. There are a lot of posts where the posters haven't made it clear whether they are quoting the abv of the total low wine collection, or the parrot abv. It makes a huge difference on spirit run day. I put my alcometer in a receiver large enough to take a whole strip.
Yes, I collected in a large 5 gallon bucket until the total collection showed 30%ABV. I transferred the collection to a glass carboy immediately after.

Thanks
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by kimbodious »

Hey Pops33, your chart shows that for low wines at 30% you will get output on your system with the amps at 4.7. Next spirit run set the power controller at say 5A and let the low wines heat up slowly. I’ll bet it will add less that 20 minutes to the heating up. You can use that time to connect up the cooling hoses and set out your jars.

13C seems pretty low for temperature of the product. If your output is surging you could be experiencing a thing called huffing where the hot vapour suddenly collapses as it enters a really cold condenser. The liquid is forcibly ejected by the hot vapour moving in which suddenly collapses and so on. You might even hear “poff poff poff”. Try reducing the flow of water to the condenser to see if you get a constant flow of output.

Just a few things you can try
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:34 pm He gave me the advice to not be greedy, even if my keeper jars were less than I wanted, since I can save those “almost hearts jars” for my next run and not really view it as wasted effort. Since then, I’ve made some great spirits.
Good advice in my opinon, as a newb learning to make cuts, the last thing you need is to be greedy and end up adding jars that you shouldn't to your hearts cut. You have the rest of your life to work out the art of blending AFTER you have learned what you are doing. At the very start be happy with a pure hearts cut......especially if you are trying to make neutral or a vodka type spirit.
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:34 pm One big piece of advice I can give is to avoid ANY heads jars! Even the slightest bit of late heads will overpower the rest of your jars once you do your final blend.
Yup till you know what you are doing avoid them like the plague.
NZChris wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:15 pm I've made a lot of gin using only pots. As long as the choice of wash is compatible with, or complements, the type of product you are aiming for, you can get away with using double pot distilled base spirit.
You seem to be in the minority there Chris, seems to me 95% of people like to start with the cleanest neutral that they can to make Gins and Liqueurs.
That is not to say that it cant be done , one of the best commercial made Hazelnut Liqueurs I ever tasted was made using a pot stilled grape spirit base. It came from a small distillery in the Hunter Valley NSW. I forget the name of the distillery now.
Pops33 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:55 pm Alright, here comes the questions:
Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑
Wed May 12, 2021 12:55 pm
Your going to have to distill at least 3 times making cuts each time to even get close.
You will need to run only what you chose as hearts<-- So no feints, only hearts? each time and adding some water to cut it back to 28-30ish will help to.
What I meant by that is hearts only go back into the pot on each of the other runs, you put the same old stuff back in each time you will get the same thing out.
Regarding adding water and distilling at a lower abv 30ish % ABV "more water acts as a sort of filter.....the extra water sort of gives the tails a place to stay in the boiler.
Did I read somewhere in one of your posts that your ultimate goal is to make Liqueurs.....I read a lot of posts.....its hard to remember whos doing what at times.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:58 am At the very start be happy with a pure hearts cut......especially if you are trying to make neutral or a vodka type spirit.
I understand if it was a whiskey, Rum, brandy, etc... I would want to add some heads and tails for flavors, but as a neutral, just keep hearts and rerun the rest when I have enough collected.
Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:58 am What I meant by that is hearts only go back into the pot on each of the other runs, you put the same old stuff back in each time you will get the same thing out.
Regarding adding water and distilling at a lower abv 30ish % ABV "more water acts as a sort of filter.....the extra water sort of gives the tails a place to stay in the boiler.<----Good to know
Did I read somewhere in one of your posts that your ultimate goal is to make Liqueurs.....I read a lot of posts.....its hard to remember whos doing what at times.
Thanks for the clarification,
Yes I mentioned I want to make liqueurs with this Gerber run. I'm not sure if it's the best recipe to do it with. I figured with a flavored neutral it would be good.
This is only my third distill. First one was a Maple Whiskey(recipe from yakatak) aged on maple wood for 1 year. I like it, my wife finds there's a chemical taste and won't drink it. I need to get better a differentiate that chemical taste my wife tastes that I don't. Second distill was Apple Brandy(recipe from cranky) still aging, almost 1 1/2 years now.
kimbodious wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:43 am Hey Pops33, your chart shows that for low wines at 30% you will get output on your system with the amps at 4.7. Next spirit run set the power controller at say 5A and let the low wines heat up slowly. I’ll bet it will add less that 20 minutes to the heating up. You can use that time to connect up the cooling hoses and set out your jars.

13C seems pretty low for temperature of the product. If your output is surging you could be experiencing a thing called huffing where the hot vapour suddenly collapses as it enters a really cold condenser. The liquid is forcibly ejected by the hot vapour moving in which suddenly collapses and so on. You might even hear “poff poff poff”. Try reducing the flow of water to the condenser to see if you get a constant flow of output.

Just a few things you can try
What would be a good temperature for cooling water to avoid huffing? I have a valve at the entrance of the coil condenser and I could try to maintain a certain water temperature.

Thanks
Pops33
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by kimbodious »

Pops33, don’t fuss about temperature of the cooling water simply reduce the flow of the cooling water, if huffing is an issue - check out Yummyrum’s video on huffing
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by kimbodious »

Back on to the topic of making cuts though. You’ll never get totally sharp transitions between heads hearts and tails on a pot still. You can however help define the relative transitions by minimising smearing of the components. You minimise smearing by keeping the rate of boiling/ vapour flow by keeping the heating power level at the optimum level for that stage of the run. Experience and recorded observations will help you determine those settings. You are at a great start with the excellent record keeping and informed questions.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:58 am You seem to be in the minority there Chris, seems to me 95% of people like to start with the cleanest neutral that they can to make Gins and Liqueurs.
I don't mind being the odd one out. Being clever with the choice of wash makes me fine gins without the time and expense of refluxing to neutral. I take a narrow heart cut that gets used for some gins, then reflux the heads and tails to use for others.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Sporacle »

What would be a good temperature for cooling water to avoid huffing? I have a valve at the entrance of the coil condenser and I could try to maintain a certain water temperature.

Thanks
Pops33
[/quote]

I literally put my ear to the end of my condensor, a liebig in my case, and you will hear it huffing. While listening I gradually lower my water flow rate. Wait a bit and listen again, huffing stopped flows ok. Check the temp on your condensor, I described it the other day as ouch, hot, warm, ok and cool running down from the outlet to inlet. Then just balance the condensor temp, flow rate and knock down. I don't get too hung up on water temp I think it is more about flow rate for mine
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

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Sporacle wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:48 pm I don't get too hung up on water temp I think it is more about flow rate for mine
Again its about using your senses, there is no particular temp that will suit all condensers. You need enough flow to get a temprature gradient happening. Feel the condencer.....warm to hot at the top.......dead cold at the bottom.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by The Baker »

Not sure if it was huffing or puffing or what.
First time I had used my still since changing from gas to electricity. 3000 watt element, still is maybe a bit bigger than a keg.
Tried out my remodelled condenser and it was huffing and puffing like a distant steam train.
If I lowered the power input to maybe 65% that stopped.
Stuffed a wad of copper mesh in the spout and no more train noises.
I suspect the condenser is far too efficient.

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