Learning to make cuts.

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Saltbush Bill
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Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Pops33 asked in Rads Gerber thread about learning to make cuts and the different tastes and smells.
I decided to put my answer here to save hijacking that thread.

This is not how I learned to make cuts ......but how I would do it if I had to teach myself again.
Very few of us have the privilege of having someone standing next to us to teach us to make cuts, its just one of those things you have to learn the hard way.....the sooner you start the sooner you will get good at it.
This is my take on it , I learned on cuts taken from a reflux still , so the fractions are more compressed and easier to smell / taste.
I'm guessing your using a Pot? Same method applies just a little harder to learn maybe.
Firstly I suggest you read this if you havnt already. https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop15&t=11640
Yummyrum has written on the same subject here ~~~~~~~> https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=68702
Not everyone does it the same way, some use taste , some smell , some do both. You will find it easier to take small samples from your jars and mix then 50/50 water to spirit.
For a beginner I would suggest that you don't worry to much about it until you have the run finished and have all the jars filled.
To make it easy to find the different smells/ tastes start with the middle jar, smell/ taste. Move to the very end Jar, smell /taste, this one should smell Musty, wet cardboard, wet dog.
Move to the very first jar you collected, and smell/taste. this one should remind you of nail polish remover / paint thinner.
Remember to cut these jars 50/50 with water......a teaspoon of spirit to one of water is enough......I use shot glasses to mix in.....sit the shot glasses in front of the jar they belong to while learning. That way you wont get confused and can go back n forth smelling and tasting.
These 3 samples alone should teach you the individual smells of Fores, Hearts and Tails.
Now add two more glasses, between the other 3 ......repeat and taste smell......slowly you are breaking the run into sections and learning the different smells. Because the jars that you are sampling are far apart the smells / tastes should be very distinctive/ easy to learn from. Keep adding glasses/ samples as you go.....repeat repeat.
Hearts is the smoothest best tasting/ smelling jar and the jars either side of that one, how many jars either side that is comes down to personal choice.
Do let the jars air for a day or two with coffee filters or a cloth over the top before making a final decision....this will help you a lot and give you time to keep testing and learning.
Probably many ways of doing it .....but if I had to learn again that's what I would do.
Dont expect perfection first time around.....just do ya best......nothing in there that will hurt you .....a hangover at worst.
Lastly don't get greedy and try to blend in other jars...not till you get better at it anyway.
Hope this helps , it started as a short, quick answer and seemed to grow.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Deplorable »

Good process Bill.
Im still trying to perfect my cuts, and refrain from being greedy. I will add that tails [to me] don't smell anything like wet dog or wet cardboard. (I even soaked some wet cardboard in water to learn the smell) To me, AG tails all smell and taste like wheat straw up front, and finish like the smell of horse sweat. (still not pleasant) What I'm getting at is tails might smell different to each distiller. Tails are my problem. Heads are easy for me.
I'm sitting here sipping on a glass of my first AG feints run made on my pot still from all the feints collected from running 200 gallons of single malt mash, and 25 gallons of CROW bourbon mash. I think this is by far, my best selection of jars. It was hard as hell for me to not want to add more.
To get past that, I did the following;
Let the 34 jars all air out, and my senses clear overnight. Getting away from the still, and the jars for a day will help you.
The next day, I made my initial selections smelling and tasting diluting as you suggest, and using a Glencairn glass. Smell, sip, and swish to coat the pallet, and spit, don't swallow. I then put a lid on the jars I knew I didn't want and set them aside. put a lid on the jars I KNEW I wanted, and left the coffee filters over the jars I wanted to think about.
The next day, I came back and took 1ml from each jar I had selected with a dropper, and blended them in the glass, diluting with an equal amount of water as before, and sampled it, left it sit, and came back to it an hour later and checked it a 2nd time to decide if it had the profile I was looking for. Then, I made another glass the same way with 2ml from each jar, and added 1 ml each from the next jar on either side, diluted, and sampled as before.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

Thank you again SBB,

Just finished the spirit run (took 10 hours). I'm wondering If I should have run it a bit faster (6 -7 hour time frame). I collected 53 jars. Airing out for 2 days.
I did it this way here thinking it would be easier to separate heads from hearts from tails.
Collected 22 jars(4730ml) of what i think are heads in 215ml volumes. I might be in the hearts by 4 or 5 jars prior to 22(i.e. jars 17 or 18), maybe more...I guess I'll try do a better separation in a couple days when I do the cuts.
Then switched to bigger jars for the hearts.
Collected 13 jars(6840ml) of what I think are hearts.
Switched back to 215 ml jars for tails.
Collected 18 jars (3870 ml) of what I think are tails.
jars collected.JPG
When you say cut the jars 50/50 with water, does this apply to the lower %ABV as well? This means a 50% ABV jar would now be 25% ABV. I thought I'm supposed to dilute to about 35%, in which I would add less water to a 50% ABV jar then I would to a 75% ABV jar.

Thanks again
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Only cut the sample in the shot glass.....not the whole jar.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

Yes,
I should have specified it in my post.
I have some droppers (1ml) and a few graduated beakers to help. I Also have some shot glass, maybe a dozen.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Looks like your set to go......bend a teaspoon handle at right angles to make a small dipper......lots easier than fiddling with droppers.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

Good point, the only reason I was going to use droppers is so can still make use of my taste buds after a few taste and smell. I'll have water on hand for in between samples to wash out the bite.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Bushman »

My method is very similar however no with known recipes I don’t collect in as many jars as I have a pretty good idea where the cuts occur. If I was just starting or using a new recipe I would collect in many jars. I do it almost the same as you with this slight change. I line them up from left to right in the order I collected, I start in the middle with smell and taste the as SBB, I then move from the middle two or three jars to the left then the same to the right of center. Since I am over 70 I think some of my taste has deteriorated so don’t sample every jar. I keep moving at least two jars up each way if they are good then I know the one’s between them are also good. This keeps me from dulling my pallet by tasting too much. Also not afraid to ask my wife’s opinion if I am not sure. I am more apt to be stingy on my cuts knowing that any extra goes into the feints and thus redistilled.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Bushman wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:36 pm I keep moving at least two jars up each way if they are good then I know the one’s between them are also good. This keeps me from dulling my pallet by tasting too much.
Good point Bushy....I also jump 2 or 3 jars at a time......the difference is more noticeable that way. You can always back peddle a jar or two when need be. :thumbup:
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by SaltyStaves »

For my pot still spirit runs, I have a nosing glass and take samples directly from the condenser throughout the run. I dilute and spit and the only real decision I make on the fly, is what jar sizes to use. With the final collection, I'll already have a rough idea where the transitions are, so I can go straight to making a narrow heart cut, then add more and more jars from the fringes until I've gone too far.

Tasting individual jars can be educational when you are starting out, but I think (at least for me), you lose your objectivity and start doubting your instincts the more you sample differing jars. That might not be true for a neutral run with very sharp transitions, but for flavourful pot still runs, there is lot of variation within the margins and you'll get no insight into how the overall blend will work by tasting a jar by itself.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Deplorable »

SaltyStaves wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:14 pm For my pot still spirit runs, I have a nosing glass and take samples directly from the condenser throughout the run. I dilute and spit and the only real decision I make on the fly, is what jar sizes to use. With the final collection, I'll already have a rough idea where the transitions are, so I can go straight to making a narrow heart cut, then add more and more jars from the fringes until I've gone too far.

Tasting individual jars can be educational when you are starting out, but I think (at least for me), you lose your objectivity and start doubting your instincts the more you sample differing jars. That might not be true for a neutral run with very sharp transitions, but for flavourful pot still runs, there is lot of variation within the margins and you'll get no insight into how the overall blend will work by tasting a jar by itself.
I agree. Thats why I started making very small sample blends in a Glencairn glass. Until I get a better grasp of what is "too far" I need to see what the blend tastes like before I mix it all in a big pot. I even went so far as to leave the still full of the backset until I made my final blend and sampled it. I figured if I screwed it up too bad I could just dump it all back together, and start over.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Can we keep this as simple as possible for newbs who want the very basics and easiest way of learning to make basic cuts...........blending isnt a part of this discussion.
For beginners just finding a few good hearts jars is enough to start with.
Here is another link to Yummys explanation on making cuts.....its a good read to with plenty of photos.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 15&t=68702
Deplorable wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:10 pm I will add that tails [to me] don't smell anything like wet dog or wet cardboard. (I even soaked some wet cardboard in water to learn the smell) To me, AG tails all smell and taste like wheat straw up front, and finish like the smell of horse sweat. (still not pleasant) What I'm getting at is tails might smell different to each distiller. Tails are my problem. Heads are easy for me.
We all seem to smell and taste things differently .....Yummy is another who says tails are not like wet dog.......personally I don't get that,
old moldy wet carpet/ wet dog is a lot like tails to me.
Sugar heads like UJ and Neutral washes like Birdwatchers especially.
Heads and tails from grain is much less offensive all around IMO.
I'm sure we all have trouble with at least some aspect of making cuts on some spirit or another, to this day I have trouble deciding where Hearts start and stop with Rum. I don't have that trouble with other things.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

Thank you all,
I read Yummy's post a few weeks back, I'll read it again later tonight or tomorrow morning before making cut.

Man, I have so many questions.
The first and main answer I'm seeking is:
As the pot still is running, is there a way to approximately tell where the hearts will begin and finish? The reason I'm asking, I collect in small jars, 200ml(maybe too small from what most distillers are using here). For a full charge still(40 L), I would need 80-100 of those jars, maybe more which would be too many. So, If I knew when the hearts start to come out, I could switch to a bigger jar until the hearts finish and back to small jar for tails.
What's the trick? taste and smell also as it comes out from the still? as Salty Staves and deplorable mentioned?

I didn't smell the wet dog/cardboard in tails, even at 20% ABV, ...maybe if I collected down to 10% it would have smell like wet dog. Is this normal for a neutral spirit ...or in this case a flavored neutral? Is it normally only occurring in Rum or Whiskey type runs?

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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by still_stirrin »

Pops33 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 3:10 am... is there a way to approximately tell where the hearts will begin and finish? <— Well, you could dip your finger into the drip every once in a while and taste it.

... I collect in small jars, 200ml (maybe too small from what most distillers are using here)... What's the trick? ... taste and smell also as it comes out from the still? as Salty Staves and deplorable mentioned? <— BINGO! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I didn't smell the wet dog/cardboard in tails, even at 20% ABV, ... maybe if I collected down to 10% it would have smell like wet dog. Is this normal for a neutral spirit ...or in this case a flavored neutral? ... Is it normally only occurring in Rum or Whiskey type runs? <— The “backend” smells and tastes different depending on what you’re making. If you’re making a sugar wash, it’ll definitely be different than an all grain whiskey. And rums have a whole lot different backend too. Brandy kinda’ runs out of steam towards the end too as most of its flavor is towards the heads end of the run.
Bottomline here Pops, is that experience will teach you where and when...if you can’t tell where the hearts are, you haven’t made enough yet. Making the same recipe over and over will teach you the qualities of that recipe, including roughly where the cuts are so you can size your jars accordingly.

Since many factors affect the spirits coming from the spout: the recipe, the yeast, how it ferments, the still, and how you run the still, etc. All of these things can change what you collect and in what proportions. If you “smear a lot” through the runs, it may disguise the progress as you go, so if you’re making cuts along the way then you need to be attentive to the pace.

But when you’ve done it over and over many times, you won’t have to ask, “is it now...or the next jar?” because you’ll know.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

Thank you all,

I was hoping for a cookie cutter type answer but it seems that it's unanimous I need to practice more. I will, I Just don't know what I'll do with all that booze. Drink more maybe!
still_stirrin wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:04 am
Pops33 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 3:10 am... is there a way to approximately tell where the hearts will begin and finish? <— Well, you could dip your finger into the drip every once in a while and taste it. I do, I dip my finger as it comes out the spout, I smell it, rub it between my fingers and taste it. I can definitely tell the difference between the first few jars from the jars in the middle from the last few jars. The ones I have difficulty with are the ones in between.
So, to create less confusion as to where the heads/hearts/tails transition from one to another during distilliation, would it be better to collect in equal size jar but with a bigger volume...say 400-500ml instead of the 200ml jars I'm using for heads and tails. I fill my jars to 1/2 inch from the top. In Yummy's thread, it looks like he fills them about 2/3rd full.

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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Smaller will be better while you are learning in my opinion.
Its one of those things that you need to learn by doing.
In 6 months and 7-8 runs you will wonder why you thought it was so hard.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by jonnys_spirit »

One thing I'll do over a couple days while deciding my cuts is to make sample blends proofed to 40-50%ABV of the fractions and drink a couple glasses each night to see how I feel in the AM and how it goes down as a sipping spirit... Once the spirit run is fractioned out into something like 20-30 jars or whatever and aired I take a couple days testing blends to get a better feel of the range to make my decision for that batch.

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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Deplorable »

Pops, 53 jars is a lot. Even for a beginner IMO. I use between 22 and 34. My spirit runs are between 20 and 30 liters of low wines around 35%
I fill them equally between 300 and 400ml in each jar. When I KNOW I'm well into hearts I may fill a qt jar, but rarely more. I don't want to risk missing the transition to tails and ruining a jar of good hearts.
Finding the fractions takes practice, patience, and dilution.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Deplorable wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 12:46 pm I don't want to risk missing the transition to tails and ruining a jar of good hearts.
+1 :thumbup:
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Yummyrum »

Excellent topic Salty :thumbup:
It is a very good method to train the senses. I’ve always encouraged newbies to taste all jars including the fores jar simply to aquaint themselves with the extremes .

As you suggest, making cuts in a reflux still for the first time is so much easier than on a pot still due to the stark difference between fractions .




Pops33 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 3:10 am I collect in small jars, 200ml(maybe too small from what most distillers are using here). For a full charge still(40 L), I would need 80-100 of those jars, maybe more which would be too many
Pops , don’t get too worried about howmany jars you are using . Sure , about 20-30 is a great amount to have butvthere were times I ran out . Jars don’t have to be jars . Just any clean vessel you have . I just looked in the glass cupboard , theres about another 50 vessels there if I run out . Then theres the Cup cupboard .
0EA03928-9A91-4ACC-B3CB-CB660E50CC6D.jpeg
So if you do end up with 100 jars , bottles , glasses etc at the end of the run , its no big deal . Collapse eveey three little ones into a bigger glass or cup . So long as they are all sequential and about the same volume, you will be good to start Saltys method .

After you have run a wash a few times you will start to figure out how many jars you will need for that size and can start yo refine it a bit .

Good advise to newbs would be to start collecting as many 500ml jars as you can . Its surprising how quickly yoy can collect them .
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:43 pm Good advise to newbs would be to start collecting as many 500ml jars as you can . Its surprising how quickly yoy can collect them .
I'm still collecting the damn things.......old habits.
"If you see a good sized jar and think "Cuts" .......you might be a distiller."
If you cant throw a glass jar in the garbage without thinking .....you might be to. :crazy:
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by howie »

and to add to all of that good advice, sometimes my taste buds just don't want to play. :wtf:
probably something to do with what i've eaten & drank the night before or had for breakfast.
i just have to walk away.
but i bet even professional tasters would struggle after 10 pints of guinness and a vindaloo (not for breakfast obv) :think:
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Yummyrum »

True thing howie . Tastebuds do change from day to day whether you nuke them with Chilli and Nicotine or not .( not that that helps either though )

Certainly another thing for Newbs to take into consideration, but not to be put off trying .

Saltys method here is about learning to compare differences . ... the wanted against the not wanted .Its a good method and works pretty well even on days when your taste buds are a bit weary.

But , theres nothing wrong with waiting another day if you think you are having a bad one . :ewink:
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Yummyrum wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:38 am Saltys method here is about learning to compare differences . ... the wanted against the not wanted .
I think you have the gist of the direction that I'm trying to head this thread in Yummy, its not about blending different parts of the hearts , heads and tails, into one drink.
Its about keeping it as simple as possible for Newbs who have no idea where to start when it comes to making, and finding a hearts cut, that they can drink and enjoy.
The more technical and tricky shit can wait .......they need to learn the simple and easy ways first, so that they can get something drinkable.
In short ya gotta learn to walk before you run......its like that with most things distilling.
You and I both taught our selves the hard way, not much advice from anyone, but we learned all the same.
I'd prefer that anyone who wants to complicate things and cant stay with the very basics stay right away from this thread.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by kimbodious »

Great thread and excellent tips! Over time I have gone to using a single wine glass, bottled water and do lots of spitting and rinsing. Swishing a 50:50 mix around in your wine glass helps detect the fusty odours when you are heading down the back end. I always work towards the tails first because I find that heads and early hearts will nuke my senses of taste and smell.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

Thank you all,

So much good information you've provided. It's been 36 hours airing out and of course angels took their share. I'm going to try to do some cuts this morning before there's none left.

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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Tell us what you learn Pops, don't fear time , there will still be plenty left to smell n taste.
Edit..angels are slow but steady .....they wont guzzle a lot in a hurry.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by rubberduck71 »

Pops33 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:17 am Thank you all,

So much good information you've provided. It's been 36 hours airing out and of course angels took their share. I'm going to try to do some cuts this morning before there's none left.

Thanks
Pops33
If anything, they took some more of the residual volatile nasties out in the first 24 hrs.
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

I took a break for lunch.

I've diluted the 50/50 way with a bent teaspoon and diluted to 35% way using the calculator. I have beakers graduated to 5ml so I can get precise with dilution. Both method were very close in taste and smell, but with the 50/50 method I found the lower proof jars were to watered down.

So far, I tossed jar 1 thru 18 and jar 43 to 53 in the feints bucket. I had my wife help with the cuts in case my senses are diminished or off.
There was a very noticeable difference between jar 42 and 43. Jar 43 had a wanky smell to it that was not present in 42. It wasn't like wet dog or cardboard though. So we decided to toss any jars after 42. Jar 42 is iffy. Also jar 38 on it's own diluted to 35% tasted good as sipping but tried a mix with some Pepsi,...I didn't like it. It was more like drinking Pepsi and vodka vs Pepsi and whiskey. I used jar 29 as my middle of the hearts. I could have gone plus/minus 2 jars either way as there are close in taste and smell.
There was a noticeable difference between Jar 13 and 14 in taste and smell also. Fiery in 13, not as mush in 14. Skipped a few jars to 18 and my wife found there was still a somewhat chemical taste to it but not in jar 19.
Keeping 19 until high 30's I think. Going back to finish.
I'll report back with final cuts later.
By the way we are using this run to make liqueurs, (kahlua, creme de menthe, apple pie, etc...)

Thanks
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Re: Learning to make cuts.

Post by Pops33 »

Well,

I think I flunked. The reason I say this is; as we sampled(smell and taste), we were able to agree on which jars made the cut. Samples from individual jars when diluted tasted fine.
I decided to keep jar 19 to 39 for a total volume of 8560ml of 70.5%ABV. After mixing them in a SS pot, I sampled the final product diluted. This is where I think I flunked is because diluted it tastes like wet newspaper(My wife doesn't think so). Full strength, doesn't taste wet newspaper.
Here's my plan:
Let it sit for a few days and try again, Make one bottle of liqueur and see if it's drinkable, if not rerun the whole batch.

One more thing I learn for my next cuts, is have bigger jars but don't fill them. I found that you can smell more when there's less spirit in the jar(less compounds escaping from the rim of the jar then when it's full). Definitely going to buy a nosing glass for this.

Thanks
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