Evaluating flavour from low wines

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1715
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Evaluating flavour from low wines

Post by NormandieStill »

I'm currently working on a an enzyme mashed wheat + oats mash. The original plan was to run it as a vodka* (lightly flavoured neutral) either on my pot still, or potentially on my CCVM (which is still a work-in-progress but may be ready in time).

My first two batches have been fermenting on the grain, largely for reasons of simplicity, and mildly increased yield and I was wondering about it's potentially as a whisky. Obviously I'll be running it quite differently if it's a whisky, going deeper into the tails on the stripping runs. Which leads me to wonder if there's a rough way of predicting flavour from the low wines. That is to say, if I run the first batch deep into the tails (down to say ~20% ABV) by tasting the low wines, either as an ensemble, or at various points in the run, is it possible to identify flavours that will get stronger / weaker in the spirit run? Or should I run one batch as a one-and-down with cuts? And if I do that, what (roughly) would be the effect of the subsequent spirit run? Is it going to concentrate the alcohol at the "cost" of flavour (this is what I would expect), or am I going to concentrate certain flavours? Or do I just need to test it because for any given recipe / still there's no way of predicting it?

* I'm hoping it would let me compare to the results of my birdwatchers run re: sugar bite, and also, feed grade wheat direct from the farm works out significantly cheaper than sugar so if the results are slightly better then it justifies the extra work.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3623
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Evaluating flavour from low wines

Post by jonnys_spirit »

About 1/3 to 1/2 of the way into a hard and fast strip run all smeared to hell like hot mayonnaise I might pull the power way back and let the boil sorta stabilize for several or 20 minutes then take a shots worth low and slow - mix that with about 1/2 water and sip on it to get an idea.

Probably not too accurate but in the hearts range with some smearing to get a vague idea. Never really more than a single shots worth and it’s sorta like spitting in the wind i guess lol.

Cheers!
-jonny
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1367
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Evaluating flavour from low wines

Post by Setsumi »

myself, if i do a grain i would like a flavoured product... that said, if you want a vodka with some base flavour run it in your CCVM... rather spent the time to finish the built.

to your question. myself will taste low wines off the still when i am about a 1/3 to 1/2 into the run. and at the end i taste the combined.... only small and out of curiosity. but regardless the taste it goes into the spirit run.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1715
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: Evaluating flavour from low wines

Post by NormandieStill »

Setsumi wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:40 pm myself, if i do a grain i would like a flavoured product... that said, if you want a vodka with some base flavour run it in your CCVM... rather spent the time to finish the built.

to your question. myself will taste low wines off the still when i am about a 1/3 to 1/2 into the run. and at the end i taste the combined.... only small and out of curiosity. but regardless the taste it goes into the spirit run.
Well I have all the parts for the CCVM (the packing should be here in a week or so) and I've got at least 3 weeks of fermenting and stripping before I'm ready for a spirit run so there's no problem with timing. Ultimately I'm looking for an easy setup for making grain based neutral, but I'm not adverse to a little soft background flavour. I quite like Oude Genever, but I'd also like to make some fruit liquors so it shouldn't be too overbearing.

I'll be running the first stripping run in a few days so I'll try the suggested technique from both of you of pulling a shot slowly mid-run and seeing what it does. I'll post back with results.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
8Ball
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1399
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:12 am

Re: Evaluating flavour from low wines

Post by 8Ball »

I find a sweet spot to sample low wines when stripping. It usually is when I’m 20-25% into the collection. It doesn't last long, but it does give a good idea of what you might get during the spirit.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1715
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: Evaluating flavour from low wines

Post by NormandieStill »

First stripping runs complete. I got about 20L of clear wash from 2 15L batches of mash by the time I'd squeezed the grains, and racked off the clear wash after a few days to a week of settling time. Tasting the wash itself was interesting. It tasted like a flavourless wine, not beer, although I think that came down to mouthfeel. I started stripping and when I'd collected about 2L of low wines, I turned the heat right down, and let it drip for about 15mins. Collected some a little in a snifter glass and diluted it down about 50:50 with water. It was headsy, but not too much. A slight grassy taste, but actually quite pleasant.

In the end I ran the low wines down to around 25%. I'll do the same for the rest of the batches and run it as a whisky. If I like the hearts I'll keep them as whisky and maybe oak them a little, if not I'll either dilute and redistill or sling them into the CCVM when it's ready.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1715
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: Evaluating flavour from low wines

Post by NormandieStill »

Well this turned into a loooooong project. I finally ran the spirit run (potstill) just over a week ago, and then blending took 3 nights over the course of about a week. Probably the longest I've let jars air after a run and it did seem to help clear up some muddled flavours in the end. I ran low and slow taking about 1L/hr from start to finish and ended up with 21 jars at 250ml per jar with a couple of overshoots. I got a clean hearts blend from four jars, then skipped a couple which didn't seem to add anything but felt a little tailsy, then had another four jars from late tails (~58% to 45% if anyone's interested). These added a little bitterness and burn, but also some fruitiness (like slightly tart blackberries) and a little butteryness towards the bitter end.

Finished up with a little under 2.5L of keep at 59%. It's split into two jars and the plan is to stick the same amount of medium toasted oak to each jar, but to char one first to see what difference it makes.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1715
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: Evaluating flavour from low wines

Post by NormandieStill »

So a little update (in case anyone cares.:wink:).

It's been on oak for six months now so I thought I'd taste some and see where it's going. I oaked it at 59%, and I've not checked the current abv, but it's in glass swing-top jars with PTFE wrapped gaskets so I assumed it to be largely unchanged. I proofed down to ~46% for tasting.

The uncharred med toast is quite interesting on the nose. Some dark fruit and a little woodyness, but also a faint hint of something chemical (TCP comes to mind, but nowhere near as strong). On the palate it's a little sweet with some burn. The flavours on the nose don't transfer to the tongue. There's no real mouthfeel or finish.

The charred med toast is simpler on the nose. Smells sweet with a slight vanilla note. In the mouth it's much rounder. Some vanilla or caramel notes, a tiny hint of either dark fruit or orangey citrus at the finish. Definitely quite drinkable as is.

For kicks and giggles I tried a straight one-to-one blend of the two. Not good at all. It somehow highlighted the worst of both.

I'll probably leave them both for a little longer, but I might try swapping out the uncharred for a small piece of charred med toast to see if it will soften the other spirit up. I also wonder about my med toast, because when I recently toasted some oak to med toast it looked very different to how my original batch of toasted oak looked and smelled quite different as well.

Edit to add: This is the longest that I've oaked something yet. It's actually very reassuring to see it starting to come good. My few stolen samples up until now have been disappointing in the extreme and I was wondering how painful the learning curve would be if you had to wait a year until you realised that you'd buggered it up!
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
Post Reply