Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

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Hybrid pot still
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Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by Hybrid pot still »

So im thinking of adding a taller riser to "Little Bestie" my 5g pot still, and as of now she has a ¾" at 14" tall riser, if i remember right, unpacked. Im thinking of adding ¾" at 30" tall, for the ability to be able to walk under it easier and also i want to pack my riser this time, in like maybe 4 to 5 areas spaced out with scrubbers i saw at the store that are copper coated steel i think maybe?? Not sure but would those be safe to use as packing? Will there be any benefits/drawbacks in doing this riser modification with packing? Im also going to shorten my Lynn arm from roughly 10' to 6 or 7 im thinking
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by NormandieStill »

Copper coated steel is not a good idea. They'll rust and then you get rusty drink.

Adding a riser is unlikely to have any significant effect on booze quality. Packing won't change anything as you're not refluxing (aside from a small amount of passive reflux). The riser is more a practicality thing which lets you get the angle you want on your condenser.

What are you hoping to achieve with the packing?

Speaking as someone who is fairly new to this, and also easily capable of running with hundreds of ideas at the same time, I think you need to calm down with the modifications and just run your still a bit. Try and get used to it as is for a while. Make a few washes from the same recipe and run them so that you start to be able to predict how it responds. Try a stripping and then spirit run protocol rather than one-and-done. Then you'll start to develop an idea of what you want to produce, and what is holding you back, and from there you can modify your still with a goal in mind rather than just modifying it for the sake of modifying it.
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by Hybrid pot still »

NormandieStill wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:48 pm Copper coated steel is not a good idea. They'll rust and then you get rusty drink.

Adding a riser is unlikely to have any significant effect on booze quality. Packing won't change anything as you're not refluxing (aside from a small amount of passive reflux). The riser is more a practicality thing which lets you get the angle you want on your condenser.

What are you hoping to achieve with the packing?

Speaking as someone who is fairly new to this, and also easily capable of running with hundreds of ideas at the same time, I think you need to calm down with the modifications and just run your still a bit. Try and get used to it as is for a while. Make a few washes from the same recipe and run them so that you start to be able to predict how it responds. Try a stripping and then spirit run protocol rather than one-and-done. Then you'll start to develop an idea of what you want to produce, and what is holding you back, and from there you can modify your still with a goal in mind rather than just modifying it for the sake of modifying it.
I was hoping to achieve a little cleaner spirit with packing, ive just read a little about it and want and kinda need to add a little taller riser for the sake of mobility without hitting it and bumping it like ive been close to doing a couple times and it would help with my condenser as i built it to my stove, which is taller than this new setup, and i cant put my backings/feints jug under the outlet, towards the end of the run because its closer to the ground than before, its been real annoying the last 2 runs out of 4 dealing constant dumping into my collection vessel, is there any downside by adding at least another 16" to 18" to the riser without packing?
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by Hybrid pot still »

I wonder, would just adding one piece of packing in the riser help with huffing at the outlet? I notice when i have the other room door open to outside and it pulls a draft through the house, and i start having huffing issues due to the environment, but prefer the doors and windows open for circulation of air
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by shadylane »

Hybrid pot still wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:32 pm scrubbers i saw at the store that are copper coated steel i think maybe?? Not sure but would those be safe to use as packing?
No :(

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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by Hybrid pot still »

Actually i think to help huffing mesh has to be after the problem point, not before right?
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by NormandieStill »

I have some copper mesh in the riser from my pot still (100mm spool tube) principally to introduce some copper into the vapour path which is all SS as far as the condenser. I do feel it also helped with the huffing, but since I changed to an electric element at the same time I can't be certain.

If the huffing happens when you open a door then it might be the additional cooling of your lyne arm. You could try wrapping the riser / lyne arm in a towel to see if a little insulation gets it under control. Or check the temperature of the cooling water, if it's too cold, that's more likely to be the cause.

The mesh is to slow the vapour speed down a little, acting a bit like a buffer to even out the flow. But the better solution is to find the cause of the problem. Try putting boiling chips in your boiler to make a more uniform boil.
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by still_stirrin »

Hybrid pot still wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:15 pm I wonder, would just adding one piece of packing in the riser help with huffing at the outlet?
I discussed the “huffing” problem in your other thread: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 5#p7671419

Part of your problem is the small diameter of the riser pipe. It limits the vapor (mass) flow rate because the velocity will accelerate to the point where the flow “chokes”. Only way to increase mass flow is by increasing the source pressure, and that’s dangerous. I’d recommend increasing the pipe diameter if at all possible. Sure, it’ll be expensive..but your performance will improve. And the riser doesn’t need to be tall, ie - 12” will be plenty.

Also, by replacing the 3/8” coil of soft copper in your worm with 1/2” soft copper, you improve the performance as well.

But, most importantly, the long lyne arm, especially with the “flat” orientation will create the huffing, as I outlined in your other thread. Shorten the lyne arm to 12” to 24” and you’ll have a much more stable throughput.
Hybrid pot still wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:15 pm I notice when i have the other room door open to outside and it pulls a draft through the house, and i start having huffing issues due to the environment, but prefer the doors and windows open for circulation of air
Yep. Again, this is because the long lyne arm is experiencing some condensation which is creating the “sucking” of air into the system as the vapor collapses.

Your still design needs more thought (and improvements).
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I'm doing some experiments with small batch alembic still (10l pot) 3/4" riser in a 1" water jacket... I've got 24" of 1" pipe available which should be adequate to reflux all vapors at my 1k5W power (i have a 24" 3/4 over 1/2 PC which does knock them all down no prob so expect 1 over 3/4 RC will do the same) - I'd like to minimize the height though so just might go with 12" and see how it performs... I haven't cut the pipe yet...

This is the type of alembic (fitted with a vertical liebig though not a worm) - so the split top section will be filled with copper mesh for my reflux experiments - not necessarily optimal WRT height and diameter so an experiment none the less just to see how I can drive it slightly differently for different product output and different product charges.
split-top.jpeg
split-top.jpeg (10.13 KiB) Viewed 581 times
Anyway, I do have copper mesh so will also experiment with packing the RC section a bit to see how it might help with transferring heat from the vapor into the 1" over 3/4" water jacket RC..

If your riser is pretty tall you might get some passive reflux particularly if you add some sort of passive cooling like fins and variable airflow or something maybe even incorporating an expansion chamber to increase dwell time and therefore heat exchange. I've noticed higher average ABV out of my alembic run with the split top in place than with my larger boiler - different still behaves differently but there must be some sort of passive reflux involved to get higher ABV from the same charge. Heat exchange in the vapor path is going to cool some vapors which are going to trend towards the lower sections and be reheated by rising vapors I will note that running the split-top both with and without packed copper mesh isn't really much different so some sort of forced or passive reflux and/or heat-exchange is needed to optimize the redistillation attributes of the packing under any RC section...

My main desire is to use this boiler/riser with some reflux enhancement primarily for developing small batch macerated feints/low-wine/cut-spirit refluxing protocols. I'll see whether it ends up being a worthwhile tool but the pipe and fittings are pretty cheap so why not and the runs are comparatively short... Azeo? Flavorless? meh...

Definitely encourage experimentation!

Cheers!
-jonny
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by Setsumi »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:48 am I'm doing some experiments with small batch alembic still (10l pot) 3/4" riser in a 1" water jacket... I've got 24" of 1" pipe available which should be adequate to reflux all vapors at my 1k5W power (i have a 24" 3/4 over 1/2 PC which does knock them all down no prob so expect 1 over 3/4 RC will do the same) - I'd like to minimize the height though so just might go with 12" and see how it performs... I haven't cut the pipe yet...

This is the type of alembic (fitted with a vertical liebig though not a worm) - so the split top section will be filled with copper mesh for my reflux experiments - not necessarily optimal WRT height and diameter so an experiment none the less just to see how I can drive it slightly differently for different product output and different product charges.

split-top.jpeg

Anyway, I do have copper mesh so will also experiment with packing the RC section a bit to see how it might help with transferring heat from the vapor into the 1" over 3/4" water jacket RC..

If your riser is pretty tall you might get some passive reflux particularly if you add some sort of passive cooling like fins and variable airflow or something maybe even incorporating an expansion chamber to increase dwell time and therefore heat exchange. I've noticed higher average ABV out of my alembic run with the split top in place than with my larger boiler - different still behaves differently but there must be some sort of passive reflux involved to get higher ABV from the same charge. Heat exchange in the vapor path is going to cool some vapors which are going to trend towards the lower sections and be reheated by rising vapors I will note that running the split-top both with and without packed copper mesh isn't really much different so some sort of forced or passive reflux and/or heat-exchange is needed to optimize the redistillation attributes of the packing under any RC section...

My main desire is to use this boiler/riser with some reflux enhancement primarily for developing small batch macerated feints/low-wine/cut-spirit refluxing protocols. I'll see whether it ends up being a worthwhile tool but the pipe and fittings are pretty cheap so why not and the runs are comparatively short... Azeo? Flavorless? meh...

Definitely encourage experimentation!

Cheers!
-jonny
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by jonnys_spirit »

The alembic is a little fiddly for me so the smaller one suits my needs well and limits the fiddliness to smaller runs but a large one would be interesting for a gas or wood fired setup... I don't mind making the flour paste seals and it does leak a little without them but no prob to address with some flour/oil/water... IMO I like the look of the boiler and appreciate the chamber and onion style head but prefer a plumbed PC/RC and the small one I have uses a 1" NPT fitting on the onion cap which is also threaded on the inside for 1/2" NPT so it's easy enough to connect either 1" or 1/2" vapor path components and not use their worm/swans neck setup... The size isn't really that limiting when you fill it with cut product for infusions/etc 2-2.5gallons per run makes plenty if filled all the way lol...

Manually managing water additions to the alembic rectifying lentil system feels a little laborious to me so I'm opting for a simpler "small-liebig" style RC for using with this still on occasion... I am interested in building some passive style open-air multi chamber air cooled passive reflux TC sections for the larger still down the road so am interested in any passive related discussions and folks related experiences... I feel like the passive reflux in larger copper stills can be experienced with smaller hobby sized stills if scaled appropriately for tighter cuts and flavor even if not full on refluxed neutral which a proper packed column and forced reflux excel at anyway..

The parts will sit in my shed for a while before I cut/solder so it's a protracted or drawn out discovery in any case lol...

Cheers!
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by Hybrid pot still »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:09 am
Hybrid pot still wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:15 pm I wonder, would just adding one piece of packing in the riser help with huffing at the outlet?
I discussed the “huffing” problem in your other thread: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 5#p7671419

Part of your problem is the small diameter of the riser pipe. It limits the vapor (mass) flow rate because the velocity will accelerate to the point where the flow “chokes”. Only way to increase mass flow is by increasing the source pressure, and that’s dangerous. I’d recommend increasing the pipe diameter if at all possible. Sure, it’ll be expensive..but your performance will improve. And the riser doesn’t need to be tall, ie - 12” will be plenty.

Also, by replacing the 3/8” coil of soft copper in your worm with 1/2” soft copper, you improve the performance as well.

But, most importantly, the long lyne arm, especially with the “flat” orientation will create the huffing, as I outlined in your other thread. Shorten the lyne arm to 12” to 24” and you’ll have a much more stable throughput.
Hybrid pot still wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:15 pm I notice when i have the other room door open to outside and it pulls a draft through the house, and i start having huffing issues due to the environment, but prefer the doors and windows open for circulation of air
Yep. Again, this is because the long lyne arm is experiencing some condensation which is creating the “sucking” of air into the system as the vapor collapses.

Your still design needs more thought (and improvements).
ss
I know, im working on it as i go, getting there tho. Pretty proud of it and everything im learning on this one im going apply to my 15.5 keg im currently working on design and buying parts, i been buying more for it than this one. I know its not much difference but tomorrow im getting some 1" copper tube for a good price so im going to use it on this one
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by bluefish_dist »

Adding packing and height to the riser might change the flavor profile a little. For a pot still there is not significant reflux and most of the time at a hobby level we don’t notice any difference. Since you are new and have not established your flavor profile, I doubt you will notice a difference. With that said, there are cases where big commercial distilleries have reconfigured stills, changing arm angles, diameters, and lengths which resulted in a flavor profile change. For them it was a big deal and they had to tune the still to keep the historical profile. I saw one picture where they added a coiled Lyme arm to get the right length for the correct profile.
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Re: Adding taller riser/column, packed..Maybe??

Post by Hybrid pot still »

bluefish_dist wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:17 am Adding packing and height to the riser might change the flavor profile a little. For a pot still there is not significant reflux and most of the time at a hobby level we don’t notice any difference. Since you are new and have not established your flavor profile, I doubt you will notice a difference. With that said, there are cases where big commercial distilleries have reconfigured stills, changing arm angles, diameters, and lengths which resulted in a flavor profile change. For them it was a big deal and they had to tune the still to keep the historical profile. I saw one picture where they added a coiled Lyme arm to get the right length for the correct profile.
Coiled lynn arm? Thats interesting
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