Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

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Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by noooze »

Hi guys

I have been distilling on a column for ages now - but now the time has come for pot distilling.
So the new setup is a "small" ......liters pot still, water heated and with a chiller just above the dome ( kinda like a whiskey dome ), that can handle the 20 KW heat we apply :)

Nice little setup :D

We do however have a rather big argument, on how to run it - my friend and I.

My friends' way of pot stilling:

Heat until boil with chiller going at full power - to hold back all vapors.
After reaching equilibrium, kill all chilling, to pump out foreshots.
Have a rather fast collection of alcohol - distill this way 3 times to get drinkable neutral.

My idea:

Heat with full chiller until equilibrium have reached.
Slowly turn down chiller to collect foreshot by almost drips, have a medium collection rate, to better separate heads from hearts.
Distill this way 3 times.

Am I too biased towards the way I distill on my column?
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by shadylane »

I'm confused. Are you going to use reflux?
Last edited by shadylane on Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

noooze wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:13 pm I have been distilling on a column for ages now
Please be a bit more specific, do you mean a Packed reflux column or a plated column.
noooze wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:13 pm So the new setup is a "small" xxxxx liters pot still,
Please read the forum rules , In our view 30 gallons and under is considered hobby size. Do not bring anything larger than this to our site. Legal distillers can talk about larger boilers in the Craft Distiller forums.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/app.php/rules
noooze wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:13 pm Heat with full chiller until equilibrium have reached.
Slowly turn down chiller to collect foreshot by almost drips, have a medium collection rate, to better separate heads from hearts.
Distill this way 3 times.
That is the way I would do it if I had to.
The thing is that a pot still might make vodka ......but it wont ever make proper neutral imo.
If its a true pot still what is it doing with a " cooler" and what do you consider a cooler?
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by shadylane »

Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

On a striping run, the max power is decided by the wash/mash.
There's a limit before the pot boils too hard and begins to foam up and puke.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by cob »

shadylane wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:11 pm Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

On a striping run, the max power is decided by the wash/mash.
There's a limit before the pot boils too hard and begins to foam up and puke.
Think 20 kw. is enough power?
be water my friend
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by River Rat »

cob wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:15 pm
shadylane wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:11 pm Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

On a striping run, the max power is decided by the wash/mash.
There's a limit before the pot boils too hard and begins to foam up and puke.
Think 20 kw. is enough power?
That oughta do the job. Would make the quickest stripping run ever done!
Plain ole pot rig.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by shadylane »

cob wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:15 pm
shadylane wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:11 pm Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

On a striping run, the max power is decided by the wash/mash.
There's a limit before the pot boils too hard and begins to foam up and puke.
Think 20 kw. is enough power?
Most likely too much, even for a sugar wash.
That's not bad, you can always turn the power down if needed. :wink:
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by noooze »

Hi all

Sorry - been out having fun in the sun - summer is finally here.
Sorry about talking about something bigger than 30 gallons. We just build it out of parts we had, and ended up at something quite large.

But right now I have converted some other parts ( a 50 liter pot ) to a new smaller pot still.
It's not easy to learn on something big, so back to small again :)

Again with a chiller above the tube going from boiler, before run off in the lyne arm to get the vapour chilled down in the condenser.

I normally destill on a plated column, but as I have moved in to making even more gin, I simply had to start using a pots still, to get more flavour :)

But we still have the argument - what is the correct way ?
My friend insist that by holding vapour back until it have separated, you can "pump " out foreshot in a big burst.
I this correct ?

I think of it more like destilling on my plated column:
Stripping runs is fast
But spirit runs are slow to make sure you separate the alcohols. So in my book, there is not fast way to do anything but stripping runs.

But perhaps I'm mistaken ?
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

If there's a condenser at the top which sends liquid back towards the boiler it's a reflux condenser (whether plated or packed or something else). If the condenser sends liquids down and out to product collection it's a product condenser... Pot still doesn't have a reflux condenser... I think this is where folks are getting confused with your description as a pot still..

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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by noooze »

Hi jonny

You are probably right - But is it wrong to use a reflux condenser to hold back vapor until you have some kind of equilibrium, as you have in a column?
My thoughts and my friends thought, is that I can help separate the layers, so you can get forshots out easy.

BR
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Hey Nooze, I don’t know the answer to that specifically. I run a pot and am starting to experiment with reflux now. When I take fores on the pot still i turn power way down and take them very slow a drop at a time for an hour or so until i get about 150-200 ml then increase heat till i get a broken or thin pencil lead sized stream to take 20-30 fractions. Spirit run.

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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by Rum Agol »

noooze wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:13 pm
My friends' way of pot stilling:

Heat until boil with chiller going at full power - to hold back all vapors.
After reaching equilibrium, kill all chilling, to pump out foreshots.
Have a rather fast collection of alcohol - distill this way 3 times to get drinkable neutral.

My idea:

Heat with full chiller until equilibrium have reached.
Slowly turn down chiller to collect foreshot by almost drips, have a medium collection rate, to better separate heads from hearts.
Distill this way 3 times.

Am I too biased towards the way I distill on my column?
Nooze it seems from your description that you are intending to triple distill your wash using a reflux condenser on a pot still to produce neutral. Why? If your aim is to make gin then I would suggest that you make a good heart cuts neutral with your reflux column and then use that in your pot still to make the gin. There's plenty of advice from knowledgable members here about making gin.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by BlueSasquatch »

noooze wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:59 am Hi jonny

You are probably right - But is it wrong to use a reflux condenser to hold back vapor until you have some kind of equilibrium, as you have in a column?
My thoughts and my friends thought, is that I can help separate the layers, so you can get forshots out easy.

BR
casper
Foreshots consist of specific types of alcohol, which vaporize first, so if you have any present (as in you haven't already removed them) they will be the first thing to come out. You want to remove and throw these away, or use them for something other than drinking.

With a pot still, you have your boiler, then pipe that runs to a condenser, nothing else in-between. Heat up your boiler, if you are recycling your water, may as well turn it on, if you are not, there are temperatures to watch, my primitive pot-still, I just feel the pipe to know where I am in the warm-up, I don't produce any foreshots until the pipe that is in contact with the water (I have a coil in an open container, so I can tell by feel, how close my still is to producing) gets to be to hot to touch.

You should also be able to start smelling the sweet smell of the fore-shots, giving you an indication that they are coming. Set a collection jar out and wait for it to start coming out, once full, switch over to your collection containers - If Stripping run, make it a larger container, run until 20% is coming out - If Spirit run, then use small jars and set them aside, with a coffee filter on top to air out for a day before making your cuts.

I can't see why anyone would want to hold back the foreshots? Sounds like it would mix the foreshots in with the heads, best to get them out of the still ASAP, which means leaving it open, so that it can come out as soon as proper temps are reached.

Some one with more experience correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by bluefish_dist »

A still is a device that separates fractions by boiling point. Since we use batch distilling the still will separate fractions by time. The way I see it we get the lightest component first, then the next lightest, etc until we get to the heavy stuff at the end. A column does the same thing, just more precise as it can slowly stack the components in the column by boiling point. This allows more of the lightest component to congregate at the top of the column for removal. The slower you run a pot still the more time you give for the lightest component to boil off allowing a better separation.

Unless you are running a large column on a small boiler I am pretty sure the column can not hold all the fore shots at once. That means you can’t just stack all the bad stuff and take it out at once.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You are correct ......you cant just " pump" the fores or heads out ........it needs to be slow and steady.
The term equilibrium is not a word usually used in conjunction with the word potstill.
I think a lot of the confusion here is because your using the wrong terms for the wrong things.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by bluc »

How do you hold a pot still in full reflux?
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by NZChris »

bluc wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:14 pm How do you hold a pot still in full reflux?
I do it by turning the heat down so that the top is hot but it's not producing. The heat being lost from the boiler and still head is equal to the heat input.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by Stonecutter »

I would suggest you run your pot still like a pot still. Forget about using a reflux for anything and just experiment making your cuts the old fashioned way. Take it nice and slow and just run the damn thing. Once you understand they way you and your still work together then you can decide whether or not to use reflux. Them pot Stills are kick ass and if you take the time to learn how it wants to run your cuts and product will be just fine.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by The Baker »

bluc wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:14 pm How do you hold a pot still in full reflux?
It is not possible to 'hold a pot still in reflux'.

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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by S-Cackalacky »

READ!!!
Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by bluc »

NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:51 pm
bluc wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:14 pm How do you hold a pot still in full reflux?
I do it by turning the heat down so that the top is hot but it's not producing. The heat being lost from the boiler and still head is equal to the heat input.
I woulda thought it impossible(without an rc) to boil off vapour and hold it in pot.

How much abv bump are you seeing by doing this?
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by acfixer69 »

bluc wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:19 pm
NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:51 pm
bluc wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:14 pm How do you hold a pot still in full reflux?
I do it by turning the heat down so that the top is hot but it's not producing. The heat being lost from the boiler and still head is equal to the heat input.
I woulda thought it impossible(without an rc) to boil off vapour and hold it in pot.

How much abv bump are you seeing by doing this?
Should be none as no change of state is happening therefor no distillation is happening. Just wasting time and energy. I think Chris does it for ester or something.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by bluc »

:crazy:
I thought for esters you had to actually hold full reflux
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

acfixer69 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:36 pm Just wasting time and energy.
That's the nitty gritty of it I reckon.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by NZChris »

bluc wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:53 pm :crazy:
I thought for esters you had to actually hold full reflux
Having heat, alcohols, precursors, acids and copper all in the same place at the same time is what will speed up ester formation.

Esters require acid and the acid is in the charge, not in the vapor or in the condensation on the walls of the still body and head, so it doesn't actually have to be in reflux at all. Letting a pot still idle just short of producing, means it is as hot as you can get it and that it has healthy convection currents to keep everything moving. I only do it for certain, flavored, products.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by Stonecutter »

You’re cheering for the Yankees to win the Super Bowl. If you want to run a pot still for your extra gin then you need to forget about your chiller and chasing abv and neutrals. How do you intend to get the “gin” flavor into your spirit? You’ve been running a plated column “for ages” so I can assume your not a novice to making cuts? Like what has been said before…either you run your still as a pot still and forget about your chiller or you continue to run in reflux and admit to yourself that you ain’t running a true potstill. It can’t be both my man.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by bluc »

NZChris wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:42 pm
bluc wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:53 pm :crazy:
I thought for esters you had to actually hold full reflux
Having heat, alcohols, precursors, acids and copper all in the same place at the same time is what will speed up ester formation.

Esters require acid and the acid is in the charge, not in the vapor or in the condensation on the walls of the still body and head, so it doesn't actually have to be in reflux at all. Letting a pot still idle just short of producing, means it is as hot as you can get it and that it has healthy convection currents to keep everything moving. I only do it for certain, flavored, products.
I know better then this i have a mate just did butter rum hold at x degrees(below boiling point) then cool to promote diacetyl production. It works.
I got it in to my head early in the piece that the still had to be in full reflux for ester production. I need to shake it out. As you were
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by NZChris »

bluc wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:28 pm I know better then this i have a mate just did butter rum hold at x degrees(below boiling point) then cool to promote diacetyl production. It works.
The cooling doesn't help. You can find many posts here by people that reckon hot/cold cycling helps, but I've never seen any science to back up that idea. When I do high temperature trickery for several days prior to a distillation, I swap the small element for the distilling element without any cooling period.
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

NZChris wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:42 pm I only do it for certain, flavored, products.
NZChris wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:49 pm When I do high temperature trickery for several days prior to a distillation,
Do tell us more Chris, I'm sure many here would be very interested in your high temperature methods, what exactly are these "products" you mentioned ?
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Re: Pot destilling - What is the correct way to destill?

Post by Twisted Brick »

bluc wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:28 pm
I know better then this... I need to shake it out.
This is for rum, but maybe this explanation will help rid you of your misgivings.

I add a measure of fresh wash to my low wines and like jonnys_spirit, bring the boiler charge up to temp slowly and hold before proceeding with my spirit run. And just as a coincidence, I run a 3" pot and as the boiler charge slowly heats up, I can see up to a half hour's worth of casual passive reflux dripping down the insides of my sightglass. Not a lot, but I bet it adds some to the esterification going on in the boiler. No vapor out and no reflux condenser required.
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