On grain ferment yield

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

On grain ferment yield

Post by NormandieStill »

So it's accepted that an on-grain ferment yields higher abv washes. But what are the losses in volume due to the grains? I'm currently stripping another white wheat enzyme mash which was made with 6.5kg of grain for 25L of water. (My first mash was actually a mixture of two 15L ones as I didn't have big enough fermenting buckets, but I've now moved to a set of 32L buckets). I squeezed out the grains 2 days ago and the bucket of very cloudy wash has sat for those 2 days settling out. Since the daylight was shining through it, it's been easy to watch the progress. Today I racked it off the trub into the boiler, but all in I don't think I got much more than about 16L of wash (I don't have graduations in my boiler so it's not easy to be certain. This is a area I need to get control over). It shouldn't be an issue since the last wash I stripped down to 20% producing about 6L and my element is covered at 9.5L of cold water, but I do wonder whether the volume trade-off of fermenting on the grain as opposed to sparging and fermenting off-grain actually means that the higher abv doesn't lead to a gain in final product volume.

Anyway, just musing while waiting for the stripping run to finish up. The next mash will be the same as I don't want to change the method partway through, but if no-one has any answers I'll maybe try and schedule in a test in the future.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3984
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by Deplorable »

With a good squeezing regime and patients, I can recover about 23.5 gallons from a 25 gallon bourbon mash. A little more on a single malt mash.
Settling out the custard from the milky squeezins takes a week or two.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by NormandieStill »

Ah. I should be leaving it considerably longer then. I'll try that on the next run and see where I end up. I don't have any fridge space in which to cold crash and I'm not convinced that bentonite is the solution.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3984
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by Deplorable »

Yes it'll take a little longer but it's worth the time.
I recently discovered that if I put the wash into a clearing vessel with more surface area, it clears faster and the cake is more dense. Rather than clearing in a 5 gallon bucket, try clearing in a large cooler. See if that helps.
Clearing in my 30 gallon drum is faster than 5 gallon buckets.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by NormandieStill »

Interesting. My 32L buckets are the biggest I've got though. If I can work out a way of getting the buckets in and out with shaking them too much I can stick them under the house (a ventilated shallow basement) which seems to hold a temp of around 15 degrees. But I don't know how easy that'll be and it runs the risk of shaking them up.

I'll probably just run the wineos shine that I was planning on running after, first which will give the next mash plenty of post-squeezing time to settle out. Just going to need to work out the logistics of storing that much low wines.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3984
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by Deplorable »

I hear ya. Ive got two 30 gallon fermenters, 5 buckets, 3 corny kegs, and a 5 gallon carboy, and I keep thinking I need more buckets. But what I really want is a 120 liter SS drum for a mashing/fermenting vessel. maybe some day...
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by NormandieStill »

I'm still hesitating over a 220L SS drum. The price is not too bad, but I'm twitchy about the shipping. I also can't really use it for the minute. In my dreams I would put in heating elements, an integrated wort chiller and a drill powered paddle and have an all-in-one solution for large scale mashing.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
8Ball
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1401
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:12 am

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by 8Ball »

17 pounds of grain & 7.5 gallons water gives me 7 gallons squeezed. I don’t let anything clear. If it makes it through my paint strainer bag then it goes into my propane fired copper pot. Works great.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.
Per a conversation I had with Mr. Jay Gibbs regarding white oak barrel staves: “…you gotta get it burning good.”
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by The Baker »

But what are the losses in volume due to the grains?

If you can distil on the grain alcohol losses should be minimal.

Geoff
The Baker
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by The Baker »

The Baker wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:20 pm But what are the losses in volume due to the grains?

If you can distil on the grain alcohol losses should be minimal.

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by Kareltje »

That.
Or you can dilute the sediment / presscake with water and let it clear again.
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Kareltje wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:28 am That.
Or you can dilute the sediment / presscake with water and let it clear again.
This is probably the easiest way i've seen so I'm doing that next AG run. Strips go pretty fast so topping the fermenter up with water and racking for another strip or two is even easier than squeezing and the strip will be what it is as far as low-wines volume.. Then maybe a sugarhead..

Cheers!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
Rrmuf
Rumrunner
Posts: 667
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:07 pm
Location: Canada

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by Rrmuf »

Kareltje wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:28 am That.
Or you can dilute the sediment / presscake with water and let it clear again.
THAT is an interesting idea! Thanks for that!
-- Rrmuf
User avatar
Bee
Swill Maker
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:20 am

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by Bee »

NormandieStill wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:10 am But what are the losses in volume due to the grains?
There is no loss compared to off-grain.
You're either losing unfermented sugars (potential alcohol) or fermented sugars (alcohol). Take your pick.
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by squigglefunk »

there's no loss if you throw everything in the still
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3771
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by Twisted Brick »

squigglefunk wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:56 am there's no loss if you throw everything in the still
There is one loss: the clean taste of a non-yeast-tainted spirit. I found this out after 18mo's aging on oak. This (and scorching) is why some distillers invest in the extra work involved in clearing. Of course, if one's palette palate does not recognize yeast notes, one is in the clear.
Last edited by Twisted Brick on Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3984
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by Deplorable »

My 25 gallon all grain mashes yield an average of about 22.5 gallons for the still after squeezin the grain dry and resting the murky stuff to settle out. I could probably get more with a conical to clear the custard a little better.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by squigglefunk »

Twisted Brick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:30 pm
squigglefunk wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:56 am there's no loss if you throw everything in the still
There is one loss: the clean taste of a non-yeast-tainted spirit. I found this out after 18mo's aging on oak. This (and scorching) is why some distillers invest in the extra work involved in clearing. Of course, if one's palette does not recognize yeast notes, one is in the clear.
:lolno:
User avatar
squigglefunk
Trainee
Posts: 886
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:27 am

Re: On grain ferment yield

Post by squigglefunk »

one thing is clear lol
Post Reply