Water pH, Hardness, Acid

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Bee
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Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Bee »

How do you know how much acid to add to your mash to get it to a proper pH given about 11grains/gallon hardness and a pH of about 7.9?

Please don't suggest I buy a pH meter. Been there, done that, too damn fidgety for the amount I brew. I'm using pH paper, but that seems to be kind of a SWAG. Is it possible to calculate the acid requirement? I added about 5 tablespoons of 88% lactic acid to my last 13 gal brew. That looked about right for enzyme conversion.

BTW, is there any enzyme out there that functions like SEBAmyl GL that works at higher pH levels?
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Sporacle »

Mate, I've got two pH meters and they haven't moved off the shelf in the shed for a long time. Did adding the lactic work for conversion ? If it did then stick to that. My pH for my mashes/washes and I'm on rainwater is dependant on recipe, either a hand full of shells or reduce the backset or dunder as required. I stay pretty low on my OG, keep my temps stable and stay under the recommended dunder backset ratios. I've said it now...... haven't had a pH issue yet. Maybe you don't need to worry about the pH, maybe .... :D
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Bee
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Bee »

Before I started adding acid, I couldn't get any alcohol out of my Booner's mashes. I'd end up adding pounds of sugar just to get 4% in a mash.

I think I got about 1.055 out of the latest, but I'm worried the pH isn't low enough. I seem to get blue distillate when my pH is somewhere over about 5 in my mash at pitch time. BTW, I'm using 2lbs ground corn per gal and 4:1 water to backset and added 5oz of Fruit Fresh (mostly citric acid) plus about 5 tbsp of the lactic.

I'd like to use BrunWater, but can't get any analysis of my water beyond a rough pH and approximate grains of hardness from the water department.
Last edited by Bee on Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Sporacle »

Do you do a starch test? A lot of guys doing booners really grind the grain and spend plenty of time on the gelatinization stage. There was a thread a while back on blue distillate. I use a pre steamed and rolled corn feed from the produce store, it breaks down really well. Good luck
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Bee »

Do you use drug store iodine?

I grind cracked corn in a blender. It's pretty fine. Not quite cornmeal for bread, but at least 10x finer than cracked. I'm using the "boil water and add to corn in a insulated barrel" method. It stays over 170F for at least 5 hours.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Sporacle »

Yeah I use the standard iodine just make sure it's the dark coloured stuff not the clear one, made that mistake before. Sounds like it should be converting. I use Yellow Angel yeast to do the work for me on my all corn after soaking in near boiled backset over night, been working well so far :D
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by shadylane »

Just by luck :wink:
Crushed grain + most water will have a pH that's close enough for Alpha enzymes.
Gluco likes a little bit lower pH to be most efficient.
Some were around 5%ish backset should lower the pH enough for Gluco.
Ya don't want the pH too low, that will denature the enzymes too soon.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Bee »

25% backset doesn't get me there.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Ben »

Sebstar htl is the pre-use/high temp for sebamyl.

You can calculate your pH but you need to have a water report, and a brewing calculator to really get it dialed in, Bru'n water, beersmith, and brewers friend all have calculators, some free some paid. A pH meter is really a lot easier than messing with all that. It's possible you have something else going on with your water; a starting pH of 7.9 is completely acceptable. Do you know what chemicals your water treatment facility uses?

There isn't some magic bullet number you have to hit. If you are between 4.5 and 6.5 all your enzymes will be working, it's possible you 25% backset addition dropped the pH too far. I think it's time for other diagnostics besides pH. It is critical, but also very forgiving.

Lets look at the rest of your process. List out steps, times and details on ingredients.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by shadylane »

Bee wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:18 pm Before I started adding acid, I couldn't get any alcohol out of my Booner's mashes.
As an experiment.
Try doing a small test mash using bottled water.
If it works, then you have a water problem. :wink:

Here's a link to Booners recipe.
What, if anything are you doing different.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 14&t=51458
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Bee »

Really not much different except I boil my water, throw it into the barrel, add 2lbs ground corn/gallon.
I heated up my backset and added it before I let the temp get down to 148. The pH seems high, the paper looks like it's in the high 5s, low 6s, so I add a bunch of acid to get it down to where it looks like it's low 5s, high 4s. If I don't do this, I get blue distillate.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Dr Griz »

Bee wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:18 pm I'd like to use BrunWater, but can't get any analysis of my water beyond a rough pH and approximate grains of hardness from the water department.
I had some serious problems with mashing with my well water. Turns out it was way sweet.

Since there's no water department to call on, I sent a sample in to Ward labs (https://www.wardlab.com/craft-brewers-test-kit/) -- it's the simplest thing in the world to enter their report into BrunWater and get a read on how much gypsum and acid you'll need to hit pH. Never had a problem with mash pH again.

Unfortunately, that won't do anything for backset -- as I understand it, the calculations for how much you'd need to add aren't particularly fun to do, but you'd need a clear read on the pH of your backset.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Windy City »

Bee wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:50 am Please don't suggest I buy a pH meter. Been there, done that, too damn fidgety for the amount I brew. I'm using pH paper, but that seems to be kind of a SWAG. Is it possible to calculate the acid requirement? I added about 5 tablespoons of 88% lactic acid to my last 13 gal brew. That looked about right for enzyme conversion.
I am not following the fidgety statement.
I use my PH meter all the time with confidence.
I also use the proper high PH and low PH calibration solutions, also the proper storage and cleaning solutions. It’s fairly quick and a lot more accurate in my opinion than paper strips where my old eyes are trying to compare colors on a strip of paper.
PH testers and all the complimenting solutions may cost more then test strips but in the grand scheme of things probably cheaper then messing up just one large mash.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Bee »

Trying to keep a pH meter wet for what may be a year between brews is what I call "fidgety".
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Ben »

I don't know why you would bother... buffer solution is cheap. Calibration can be done while you are waiting on strike water to heat up, or waiting for temp to equalize. My $20 meter requires drying before storage, so I dry it, store it, calibrate it when I am working with a new recipe and dialing things in. Then it gets dried and back on the shelf. Most of the time the calibration is fine, but if I am relying on it then I am going to spend the time to calibrate.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Bee »

What brand/model is that, Ben? Every one I've seen requires being stored wet in some sort of solution.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by shadylane »

I got a pH meter awhile back.
It was a valuable tool that helped me learn.
Now I seldom use it, because I know what's needed.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Ben »

Mine was marketed under the brand "Pancellent"
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Bee »

I guess I have a handle on the situation.
It blows me away how much acid my water takes. In addition to 25% backset, it takes at least 2 1/2 - 3 oz of 88% lactic acid for a 10 gal mash. I just have to accept that. My pH paper has to show some pink. Otherwise I get poor conversion and blue distillate.
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Re: Water pH, Hardness, Acid

Post by Ben »

Dang, that is a lot. I guess you could pull a portion of your water, and distill it in your alchoholmachine.
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