Getting up to Temp

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TheoreticalJoe
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Getting up to Temp

Post by TheoreticalJoe »

I'm still relatively new to this hobby and am looking for best practices around heating a pot still. I have a 15 gallon keg boiler with a 55k heating element. For a spirit run, I turn the power up on the element pretty high and then turn it back down once I see the first drops. I then regulate the power to get the desired drip/trickle/stream. Is that the best approach?

My concern stems from the fact that I am seeing my condensation temps (thermometer in the top of the riser, just before the elbow going to the condenser) jump from 140ish to 190ish in just a matter of minutes. To say it another way, it takes around 20 or 30 minutes to get up to 140 or so and then it seems like 5 minutes later I am at 185 or 190.

Should I run lower power from the beginning, taking longer to "get up to temp" or continue to do what I am doing?

I collect in half pint jars and have been doing cuts mostly based on smell, since I don't see a lot of difference in taste. I realize that a lot of things can factor into taste, just wondering if this is one I should worry about or do differently.
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Sounds good to me. I’ll run 5k5W full power for approx 45min And then pull fores low and slow. As slow as I can stand. Then dial it up to a broken stream for the first few jars of heads and then a pencil lead sized stream (no one ever mentions which size pencil lead so that depends on your pencil lol). Collect fractions till into tails again then strip hard till done.

If I can time it right and dial back the power before fores starts then ease up into it nice and sneaky i feel extra kraftig then don’t really fiddle with it much except for the parts i mentioned.

Thermometer? Who said those were good for anything? Tape over em or chuck em till you’ve got several runs behind you then use them only in extreme anger.

Cheers!
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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LWTCS
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by LWTCS »

Forget the thermometer.

Put your hand on the cap to feel where the heat is.
Once the base of the cap is too hot to touch, can dial back the heat accordingly.

All that can happen before the thermometer says boo.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Good advice about thermometers in the posts above, tape over it , dont look at it.....its just going to confuse hell out of you.
The time spent staring at it and thinking about what its doing can be much better spent learning to run your still without its "none help".
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Stonecutter
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by Stonecutter »

TheoreticalJoe wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:58 pm I'm still relatively new to this hobby and am looking for best practices around heating a pot still. I have a 15 gallon keg boiler with a 55k heating element. For a spirit run, I turn the power up on the element pretty high and then turn it back down once I see the first drops. I then regulate the power to get the desired drip/trickle/stream. Is that the best approach?

My concern stems from the fact that I am seeing my condensation temps (thermometer in the top of the riser, just before the elbow going to the condenser) jump from 140ish to 190ish in just a matter of minutes. To say it another way, it takes around 20 or 30 minutes to get up to 140 or so and then it seems like 5 minutes later I am at 185 or 190.

Should I run lower power from the beginning, taking longer to "get up to temp" or continue to do what I am doing?

I collect in half pint jars and have been doing cuts mostly based on smell, since I don't see a lot of difference in taste. I realize that a lot of things can factor into taste, just wondering if this is one I should worry about or do differently.
What is your method of regulation?
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by bluefish_dist »

One thing to watch for is the “hot break”. Protein can cause foaming at the beginning of the run and then once those are destroyed, you can run more power. I use full power until heat starts to come up the column, then back off to below the power level I will run for most of the run. So say a 2” on a keg, 5500 to heat up, then down to 1300-1400 until stabilized or for a strip run after the hot break. Then ramp up to 1600-1800w for the balance of the run.
On my big still I had a thermometer in the boiler which was an indicator of when it would boil and how much alcohol was in the boiler. On my small still I used a IR pyrometer shooting a section of the still spray painted black. This is only an indication of what’s going on, not to be used to control the process.

The black spot is because IR pyrometers are calibrated to an emissivity of .95 which is for a black surface. Bare aluminum is about .3 and not sure on bare stainless, but I am sure it’s lower than .95.
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by TheoreticalJoe »

I appreciate the feedback and advice. To answer a couple of the questions asked:

1. I have a thermometer in the riser, but I don't make any decisions based on its reading. I pretty much go by sound (I can hear the heating element heat up), by sight (sight glass in the riser), and touch (the amount of heat in the riser and into the condenser). I log data (including temp) as I go, initially every 15 minutes and then every time I change out the catch container. Any adjustment I make - to either power or condenser cooling - is based on what kind of stream I have vs what I want.

2. I regulate the power to the heating element using an SSR and a potentiometer. The dial goes from 10 to 100, but doesn't really represent anything other than a number. As stated above, I log everything, so I write down where I'm at on the dial for each time increment, but I adjust the dial based on the stream I want.

Jonnys comment
jonnys_spirit wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:16 pm If I can time it right and dial back the power before fores starts then ease up into it nice and sneaky i feel extra kraftig then don’t really fiddle with it much except for the parts i mentioned.
comes closest to what I was trying to ask. Should I slow down my initial heat up so that I get into the fores at a slower pace or crank it up until the first drips and then try to dial back to a slow drip. Seems like some do it the first way and some do it the second...

I like Bluefish's approach and think I will try it on my next run:
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:45 pm I use full power until heat starts to come up the column, then back off to below the power level I will run for most of the run. So say a 2” on a keg, 5500 to heat up, then down to 1300-1400 until stabilized or for a strip run after the hot break. Then ramp up to 1600-1800w for the balance of the run.
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by FLOB »

bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:45 pm So say a 2” on a keg, 5500 to heat up, then down to 1300-1400 until stabilized or for a strip run after the hot break. Then ramp up to 1600-1800w for the balance of the run.
Bluefish-
Could you elaborate on that a little? What signs would I be looking for to know I am stabilized? And then again, what signs would tell me I am past the hot break?

Thanks
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by kimbodious »

I set my power controller to the level where I usually run the boiler at during a spirit run. I let the system slowly come up to the point of a gentle boil. It probably only adds 20 minutes to the total run. I figure why bother push the contents of the boiler into a disturbed smeared state and then back it off again?
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by FLOB »

In the few times I've done it so far, I feel like I've spent too much time slowly dialing it up. What you are describing was my plan for my next spirit run. This is my first reading about a hot break.
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by bluefish_dist »

FLOB wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:04 am
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:45 pm So say a 2” on a keg, 5500 to heat up, then down to 1300-1400 until stabilized or for a strip run after the hot break. Then ramp up to 1600-1800w for the balance of the run.
Bluefish-
Could you elaborate on that a little? What signs would I be looking for to know I am stabilized? And then again, what signs would tell me I am past the hot break?

Thanks
At the beginning of the run you may get a lot of foaming. If you have a sight glass you can see it starting to come up the column. Once all the proteins are broken down this should subside and you can up the power a little if desired. Then the limit becomes flooding of the column or puking. Really it takes running and seeing how your wort and still respond. On my still it would take 30-40 min for the hot break during stripping runs. That was a sugar and barley wash/wort. About 2/3 sugar.

If you are running a column still, then stabilize for 30-60 min to get the column stacked and settled in. I could see this happen by monitoring head temperature. It will decrease as the still stabilizes and eventually become stable at the purity your still can achieve. The temperature will vary based on weather, wort, and still construction. Lower power for stabilization is easier on your reflux condenser. No need to put in a lot of heat only to take it back out. Once you start pulling off product, then slowly add heat to keep it stable. Of course there is a limit to both heat added and takeoff rate and keeping the column stable. For that you just have to learn your still. No shortcut for making runs.
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Re: Getting up to Temp

Post by FLOB »

bluefish_dist wrote:
FLOB wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:04 am
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:45 pm So say a 2” on a keg, 5500 to heat up, then down to 1300-1400 until stabilized or for a strip run after the hot break. Then ramp up to 1600-1800w for the balance of the run.
Bluefish-
Could you elaborate on that a little? What signs would I be looking for to know I am stabilized? And then again, what signs would tell me I am past the hot break?

Thanks
At the beginning of the run you may get a lot of foaming. If you have a sight glass you can see it starting to come up the column. Once all the proteins are broken down this should subside and you can up the power a little if desired. Then the limit becomes flooding of the column or puking. Really it takes running and seeing how your wort and still respond. On my still it would take 30-40 min for the hot break during stripping runs. That was a sugar and barley wash/wort. About 2/3 sugar.

If you are running a column still, then stabilize for 30-60 min to get the column stacked and settled in. I could see this happen by monitoring head temperature. It will decrease as the still stabilizes and eventually become stable at the purity your still can achieve. The temperature will vary based on weather, wort, and still construction. Lower power for stabilization is easier on your reflux condenser. No need to put in a lot of heat only to take it back out. Once you start pulling off product, then slowly add heat to keep it stable. Of course there is a limit to both heat added and takeoff rate and keeping the column stable. For that you just have to learn your still. No shortcut for making runs.
Thanks for the expanded reply. Currently I have a pot still setup on a keg with electric heat. Will probably convert to a modular CCVM eventually. Since I often don't have the time to play with the toys I have, I haven't made the leap yet. Got about 10 gallons of Honey Bear low wines waiting for their spirit run.
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