Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

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Asos21
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Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by Asos21 »

I've heard many of times people say that a sugar wash doesn't produce methanol usually

The usually is what I would like some information on.

Under what conditions does a sugar wash produce methanol?

So while a bakers yeast wash fermented at 25c wouldn't produce methanol. What about a turbo 48 sugar wash that produces 20% alcohol in 5 days?

I don't use turbo yeasts and this was just an example. I'm just interested in the conditions that cause methanol as a biproduct in a sugar wash? Is it the tenperature? Yeast? Ect

Thanks
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by still_stirrin »

If, and I reiterate, IF it did produce some methanol, the amount would be minimal. In fact, the orange juice you drank for breakfast has more methanol in it per unit volume than your “sugar wash” would. While methanol is toxic, surprise…..so is ethanol! Yet, you chose to drink it and FEAR the methanol.

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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I've seen a couple post now about this. It only tells me you missed some stuff in the mandatory reading, becuase there's plenty of debunked stuff around methanol in there. It's really a non issue in distilling. Lots of old scare tactics hanging around is all. Go. Read the important stuff again.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

“Just cuz we aren’t paranoid about the methanol in our likker doesn’t mean it’s not there!”
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by NormandieStill »

Methanol in a wash is usually there because you fermented fruit which was high in pectins. Plums are probably the most common. As I understand it you can reduce it by using a pectinase before the yeast get to work. If there's any in a sugar wash it's because you stressed the yeast lots, and even then the quanities will be minimal.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by ThomasBrewer »

There may not be methanol in your sugar wash, but there are plenty of other side products that you don't want in a product that will be consumed. Heads are good for cleaning your windows.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by seamusm53 »

You cannot get methanol from sugar fermentation. Stressed yeast beasts may result in a lot of bad-tasting crap but this research chemist knows of no fermentation pathways which lead to methanol. When methanol poisoning hits the news it is always from the deliberate or accidental adulteration of ethanol spirits with methanol and it is most always criminally deliberate. During Prohibition such 'news' was shouted loudly by our Feds to discourage moonshine consumption and such is usually echoed still today when methanol poisoning happens anew. Sadly, there is no shortage of evil and stupidity and I recall it happened in some Mexican bars not that long ago.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by NormandieStill »

seamusm53 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:10 pm You cannot get methanol from sugar fermentation. Stressed yeast beasts may result in a lot of bad-tasting crap but this research chemist knows of no fermentation pathways which lead to methanol.
From my biochemistry days I always maintain a "never say never" attitude with regard to organic chemistry and molecular biology. But I bow to your more recent knowledge regarding metabolic pathways of yeast.

Interestingly a quick google produced the following article Methanol Mitigation during Manufacturing of Fruit Spirits with Special Consideration of Novel Coffee Cherry Spirits (which seems to include an up-to-date summary of the state of the art regarding methanol production in spirits and might be worth including in a sticky somewhere), and the realisation that not all commercial pectinases are able to break down pectin without producing methanol.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by Twisted Brick »

Informative article, NormandieStill. Not only is it current, it provides practical measures home pot stillers can follow to help mitigate whatever levels of methanol are produced from their fruit fermentations and distillations. I think this article should be compulsory reading for anyone running fruit.

Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by Demy »

I don't think a sugar washing is zero methanol but will have a certain amount (even if low). P.S. I will try to interpret that link document with calm ...
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by Kareltje »

NormandieStill wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:43 pm
seamusm53 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:10 pm You cannot get methanol from sugar fermentation. Stressed yeast beasts may result in a lot of bad-tasting crap but this research chemist knows of no fermentation pathways which lead to methanol.
From my biochemistry days I always maintain a "never say never" attitude with regard to organic chemistry and molecular biology. But I bow to your more recent knowledge regarding metabolic pathways of yeast.

Interestingly a quick google produced the following article Methanol Mitigation during Manufacturing of Fruit Spirits with Special Consideration of Novel Coffee Cherry Spirits (which seems to include an up-to-date summary of the state of the art regarding methanol production in spirits and might be worth including in a sticky somewhere), and the realisation that not all commercial pectinases are able to break down pectin without producing methanol.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by NormandieStill »

Kareltje wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:19 pm Tres bien monsieur!! Merci beaucoup!
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by Demy »

I read this great article, very interesting. I was very impressed that (if I interpreted well) the methanol is not meggaining concentrated on the heads .... Difforer from what is usually said. Another thing that struck me is the fact that greater reflux relationship seems to contaminate the distillate more methanol ....... I would like your opinions on this, maybe I misinterpreted.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by Kareltje »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:49 pm
Kareltje wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:19 pm Tres bien monsieur!! Merci beaucoup!
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by NormandieStill »

Kareltje wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:23 pm
NormandieStill wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:49 pm
Kareltje wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:19 pm Tres bien monsieur!! Merci beaucoup!
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Nee. Mijn vrouw is nederlands. And that's about the limit of my written dutch.
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by Setsumi »

Demy wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:37 am I read this great article, very interesting. I was very impressed that (if I interpreted well) the methanol is not meggaining concentrated on the heads .... Difforer from what is usually said. Another thing that struck me is the fact that greater reflux relationship seems to contaminate the distillate more methanol ....... I would like your opinions on this, maybe I misinterpreted.
Demy, Nermina Spaho published in 2017 Distillation techniques in fruit spirit production. Statements reg methanol is in high alcohol environment it forms azotrope with heads (in a reflux column) and in a low alcohol environment like potstil it is more predominant i tails... but it is present throughout the run.

Edit. The article referenced here only reviewed but they say not to recycle tails so that would mean potstill in the Spaho study...
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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

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Re: Does a sugar wash produce methanol?

Post by stillanoob »

NormandieStill wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:43 pm
Interestingly a quick google produced the following article Methanol Mitigation during Manufacturing of Fruit Spirits with Special Consideration of Novel Coffee Cherry Spirits (which seems to include an up-to-date summary of the state of the art regarding methanol production in spirits and might be worth including in a sticky somewhere), and the realisation that not all commercial pectinases are able to break down pectin without producing methanol.
Really interesting! I slow ferment so that is one good point in my favor. I will look into what type of pectin enzyme I have and get the recommended type. Thanks for the link!
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