Sugar Vs Corn

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LionFishSlayer
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Sugar Vs Corn

Post by LionFishSlayer »

Hello all, I am brand new with 2 runs under my belt. First run was a sugar wash with bread yeast. I was nervous about making cuts so after the first 4oz which was tossed (only a 3.5-4gal batch) I just collected 8oz at a time in separate jars until I hit 30 proof. As far as smell went I honestly couldn't tell much difference in any of them, taste obviously got weaker down the line but none tasted bad. I mixed them all together but the last 3 jars and it tasted great. Separated some and added oak chips to soak a few days and was even better! Tasted like whiskey. Next run was the flaked corn maize with malted barley and turbo yeast. Fermented on the grain. Collected in the same manner and this time there was a definite difference in the last jars, first jar was noticeably stronger with xtra bite and the middle 3 jars seemed the best of the bunch. Which is how I was expecting it to be the first time. On to the question..For me the sugar wash was much better than the corn. the sugar wash was crisp and clean where the corn seemed to have some weird flavors. Does the corn just need to age, did I do something wrong or does it just taste that way? ( I know, like you can taste it) But anybody that does sugar and corn regularly is there that dramatic of a difference?
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rubberduck71
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by rubberduck71 »

LFS, I see by your post count that you're very new to the site.

Suggest you heavily browse the Novice distiller pages, and especially Cranky's Spoon Feeding thread.

Basically it comes down to:
  • Make your product how YOU like it
    Read until your eyes bleed, wipe them off, & read some more
    The Search Bar in the top right of the page is your friend; or Google "your question" + homedistiller
    There are MUCH better alternatives than Turbo Yeast
    All Grains "generally" taste better than sugar washes, but nothing wrong with the latter
    Tried & True recipes are almost fool-proof
    The hardest thing to put into a bottle is patience
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Sporacle
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Sporacle »

The hardest thing to put into a bottle is patience
I love that :thumbup:
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Windy City
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Windy City »

Sugar washes like Shady’s Sugar Shine in the tried and true are great for neutrals but if you want to make a true bourbon or whiskey you can’t beat all grain. With that being said many a newcomer start off with Uncle Jesse simple sugar shine (UJSSM) it will give you some of the grain flavor without the extra work of actually cooking a mash. After you are comfortable with that check out some of Jimbo’s or Woodsheds recipes in the tried and true section. Also loose the turbo yeast and automatically create a better product. This forum is about quality :)
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SmokyMtn
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by SmokyMtn »

I recommend swapping the yeast. Use turbo on the sugar wash this time, and bakers yeast on the grain. You already have a baseline.So now you can experience what flavors or off flavors yeast bring to the table.
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Windy City
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Windy City »

SmokyMtn wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:53 pm I recommend swapping the yeast. Use turbo on the sugar wash this time, and bakers yeast on the grain. You already have a baseline.So now you can experience what flavors or off flavors yeast bring to the table.
I totally disagree! Why use a poor recipe or product just to prove its a poor recipe and product. This forum has done the testing, if you are looking to do a simple sugar shine it’s already been figured out. Now if you are looking to make a new mash experiment and go for it.
I just finished spirit runs on Shady’s Sugar Shine (bakers yeast) and can attest that it is a extremely clean neutral.
I see absolutely see no reason to spend extra money on a yeast that has too much nutrients and is designed to make fuel if your ambition is to make a clean neutral. As far as all grain goes I prefer US-05 for simplicity and a lower fermentation temperature but have played around with some wit yeasts also with good results. If your goal is to make something whiskey-ish but a sugar shine try UJSSM it is a great recipe and a great place to start.
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http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
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Truckinbutch
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Truckinbutch »

Lost me when Turbo Yeast was introduced
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SmokyMtn
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by SmokyMtn »

Windy City wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:26 pm
SmokyMtn wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:53 pm I recommend swapping the yeast. Use turbo on the sugar wash this time, and bakers yeast on the grain. You already have a baseline.So now you can experience what flavors or off flavors yeast bring to the table.
I totally disagree! Why use a poor recipe or product just to prove its a poor recipe and product. This forum has done the testing, if you are looking to do a simple sugar shine it’s already been figured out. Now if you are looking to make a new mash experiment and go for it.
I just finished spirit runs on Shady’s Sugar Shine (bakers yeast) and can attest that it is a extremely clean neutral.
I see absolutely see no reason to spend extra money on a yeast that has too much nutrients and is designed to make fuel if your ambition is to make a clean neutral. As far as all grain goes I prefer US-05 for simplicity and a lower fermentation temperature but have played around with some wit yeasts also with good results. If your goal is to make something whiskey-ish but a sugar shine try UJSSM it is a great recipe and a great place to start.
I could have told em that turbo yeast is the root of the problem. But experiencing first hand teaches a whole lot better. I remember when I first started. I was stubborn, hard headed, and would certainly not waste yeast I paid good money for. Unless I seen with my own eyes what poor results I got. My suggestion would show the OP that yeast choice directly effects end product, without any risk to life or limb. It's obvious they haven't read the mandatory reading so this is was an alternative.
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Rrmuf »

I would say you changed too many things at once to draw conclusions for yourself on why its different or that it is related to Sugar vs Corn. Everybody here will tell you to drop the turbo yeast, and I am guessing that you will get there too. I made a couple batches with Turbo Yeast and then dropped it. I don't regret starting there just because it did speed up my learning process, but I wouldn't drink that distilate now, and never went back - but I did learn what "off taste" smells like! I am more on the Smoky page of how some people learn. In my case, I did most of my reading AFTER batch #1. It is just the way some of us are wired.

If you want to learn with a *better* head start, then:

1. Read, read, read (per advice you got here)
2. Restart, with a T&T recipe.
3. Only change a few things at a time (ideally, one thing at a time but I can relate to impatience in getting to "Great")
4. Take lots of notes focus on quality, not quantity. Personally, I take lots of observation points, smell, taste, temps, flow, volumes, configurations..... but that's just me and how I have fun!

So, have fun, you do you, and do respect what the very experienced folks here bring to the table. They are all helping - even the cranky ones. ;-)
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Rrmuf »

rubberduck71 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:05 pm LFS, I see by your post count that you're very new to the site.

Suggest you heavily browse the Novice distiller pages, and especially Cranky's Spoon Feeding thread.

Basically it comes down to:
  • Make your product how YOU like it
    Read until your eyes bleed, wipe them off, & read some more
    The Search Bar in the top right of the page is your friend; or Google "your question" + homedistiller
    There are MUCH better alternatives than Turbo Yeast
    All Grains "generally" taste better than sugar washes, but nothing wrong with the latter
    Tried & True recipes are almost fool-proof
    The hardest thing to put into a bottle is patience
image.png
I love that screen capture! I wish I saw it when I started!!!!
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LionFishSlayer
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by LionFishSlayer »

Thanks for all the replies guys. First let me clear a few things up, it's hard to say everything without writing a novel. I have read to no end, some of the problem is conflicting information. My main goal is to make whiskey and a little rum.. some neutral spirits along the way but whiskey is top choice. I only did the sugar shine for practice but it turned out fantastic. I will say the sugar fermented at a fairly low temp for over 2 weeks ( I think that makes a difference ) and the corn with turbo for about a week. I hear one person say bread yest will not produce as much because it can't survive long enough in the alcohol and others say it will do just fine. I got just as much product from the sugar with bread yeast as I did with the corn and turbo and for me more of the sugar was actually drinkable.. I have a couple jars of the corn soaking with light and dark toast oak chips so I will see how those taste later. I also have another ferment of corn and rye going with bread yeast so we will see how that turns out.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by still_stirrin »

LionFishSlayer wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:11 am Thanks for all the replies guys. First let me clear a few things up, it's hard to say everything without writing a novel. I have read to no end, some of the problem is conflicting information… <— Well, it’s a start! But your questions lead us to believe you’ve still got a lot more reading (and practice) to do.

My main goal is to make whiskey and a little rum, some neutral spirits along the way but whiskey is top choice.

I only did the sugar shine for practice but it turned out fantastic. I will say the sugar fermented at a fairly low temp for over 2 weeks ( I think that makes a difference ) and the corn with turbo for about a week. <— An “all grain” ferment will always require more time to ferment to completion compared to a sugar wash regardless of the yeast used. The “Turbo” yeast contains nutrients that “super-charge” the yeast and this results in a vigorous activity at first.

But, latent fermentation when the remaining fermentables are consumed and converted, will take longer. It is an “asymptotical” process, meaning the activity slows down exponentially as the ferment nears completion.


I hear one person say bread yest will not produce as much because it can't survive long enough in the alcohol and others say it will do just fine. <— Bread yeast will tolerate alcohol potentials up to 12%ABV relatively easily, although you should never “aim” for that high of potential. As a rule, ferments up to 10%ABV are acceptable and do not produce significant congeners (off flavor products). When you “push” the OG too high, it stresses the yeast and by-products emerge during the process.

I like to use bread yeast in my all grain ferments. It is inexpensive and easily sourced at my local grocery store. Bread yeast will highlight the grain flavors in your ferment, and as a result, it is ideally suited. Distiller’s yeast (DADY) is also another good option, but is more expensive and not as convenient to source.

Turbos suck! It is NOT recommended to opt for it on this website, although there are many videos on Youtube that do recommend it. “Caveat pre-emptor”.


I got just as much product from the sugar with bread yeast as I did with the corn and turbo and for me more of the sugar was actually drinkable.. I have a couple jars of the corn soaking with light and dark toast oak chips so I will see how those taste later. I also have another ferment of corn and rye going with bread yeast so we will see how that turns out. <— So, I caution you with an all grain ferment of corn & rye, at least until you have mastered your brewing and fermentation skills. A high percentage of corn recipe is challenging to start with and using rye malt complicates that process even more.

Practice making a “single malt” with malted barley and gain experience distilling and making proper cuts. Do it several times until you can predict the outcome. Then, begin to add other adjunct grains. Be patient and practice. It will help avert problems.
Again, I suggest gaining experience before “diving into the deep end”. It will help you learn the subtle nuances of our hobby.
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SmokyMtn
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by SmokyMtn »

I exclusively use bread yeast. All for the reasons SS mentioned. And I'm the type that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm pleased with my results. But that doesn't make it right for everyone. Bread yeast will ferment anything worth drinking.

As for reading. This hobby is a never ending learning process. A race with no finish line. I read and learn something new everyday. Never take offense to someone suggesting that you need to read more, we all need to.
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LionFishSlayer
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by LionFishSlayer »

Should have added the corn and rye also has malted barley for the enzymes. I get the picture on the turbo yeast, I would rather use bread yeast anyway since its cheap and easy to get. I have read plenty and it got me going but I am more of a hands on learner.. the more I read (with all the conflicting info) the more confused I get.. I just need to do and see the results. thought a little live advice from active distillers might help.
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Demy »

You are comparing two very different products, it is normal that a sugar washing will be different from another with cereals, there is no better or worse they are different, establish which you want to produce then decide the ingredients (together with good readings on the forum) . Even the cuts could be different based on the distiled product.
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by distill_smith »

Not trying to hijack this post, but it seemed like a relevant question; can anyone shed light on the difference between mashing corn vs using corn sugar (not the typical sugar wash)? I can buy buy corn sugar from my local HB store pretty reasonably. If the whole point of mashing is to produce sugar for fermenting (specifically corn sugar), why not just start with corn sugar?
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Ben
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Ben »

Because corn sugar is nearly 100% fermentable, highly processed, expensive and you don't get the corn flavor from it. You can use it as an alcohol booster, but I wouldn't expect anything flavor or mouthfeel wise from it.
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by still_stirrin »

LionFishSlayer wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:51 am… I am more of a hands on learner…

… the more I read (with all the conflicting info) the more confused I get …
You know, this is a common response from many of the new home distillers. I guess it is understandable because when you don’t know “right from wrong” or “good from bad”, you grasp at whatever you can to help “comfort” you in the learning process.

But understand that many of the old, long-time members have been at it for a long time. And not all of us have been “raised up” in the same household. So, processes and perspectives vary, especially when you consider the many differences in the types of equipment we use. As a result, it really depends on what equipment you’re using and how you run it.

Of course, experience will give you a good understanding of how your particular equipment runs best, especially for the products you’re trying to produce…and even your paradigms of how that product should be. Remember, you’re an “artist” and your product is your “art”. Your fermenter and still are the tools you use but the process you use will have a big influence on what your “art” turns out to be.

For “conflicting info” perspective, just use the data/advice as different perspectives, from which you gain knowledge without the hours/days/years that the advisors have invested to share their experiences. You get a whole lot of experience for a small investment in reading.

Remember, ultimately it will only get you to the point of experimentation with your own processes and equipment. That is where you truely learn this hobby. And keep in mind that there really isn’t a “right or wrong” way, because it will be YOUR way.

Don’t be afraid to experiment and fail. Many lessons in life are learned “the hard way”. Just always be safe in your venture. And be responsible and discrete in this hobby as well.
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Truckinbutch »

Still_Stirrin ;
That's great advice .
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Demy
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by Demy »

distill_smith wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:35 am Not trying to hijack this post, but it seemed like a relevant question; can anyone shed light on the difference between mashing corn vs using corn sugar (not the typical sugar wash)? I can buy buy corn sugar from my local HB store pretty reasonably. If the whole point of mashing is to produce sugar for fermenting (specifically corn sugar), why not just start with corn sugar?
If you want to produce a neutral then it's fine but if you want another typical cereal product then it's not the best way, you won't have the typical flavors, if it's the best you can find then it's ok ...
LionFishSlayer
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Re: Sugar Vs Corn

Post by LionFishSlayer »

Well said still_stirrin, I do believe something went awry with that batch tho.. it just don't smell or taste right. The hard part is the long wait to try again :roll:
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