Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

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Schuetzenman
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Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Schuetzenman »

Alright, working on making neutral, last time I was still in it sounded like the column was loading up and then dumping back into the boiler. Thoughts on what could be causing this? Do I need more heat, or less? No signs of flooding in my sight glass. Obviously the column was not stabilized so my product suffered greatly. Any advice to help the learning curve is appreciated.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Deplorable »

What is your heat source?
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by bluefish_dist »

What’s holding the packing in your column? Usually sounds other than a small hiss was my column getting ready to puke. Could also be cycling of your heating element?
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Sporacle »

I'm pretty sure he's on gas, take off rate and abv will pretty much tell you where you're at.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Schuetzenman »

I’m running on propane. I don’t think it was going to puke as it was 40% low wines, which maybe you can puke anyway?

ABV was 95-ish and takeoff rate was about 1.5qt per hour, although honestly I am still working out the best way to measure this.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Sporacle »

:D If your getting that then I think you're fine
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Schuetzenman »

I am, but I feel/smell/taste like I am getting smearing from the column instability. Albeit I am very new to the hobby and know I am far from being proficient at making cuts.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by bluefish_dist »

If it’s a 2” and you are making a neutral, slow down takeoff to 1 qt/hr. Will be cleaner. Depending on what’s holding up packing it may be holding liquid up at the bottom of the packing. You need pretty big holes to let it drain back down.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Schuetzenman »

I have nothing holding the packing, just SS scrubbies packed in to where I just feel resistance when I blow through the column.

I will try slowing my takeoff on my next run. Thanks for the suggestions guys.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Is the Column insulated ?......if not that will also help.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Schuetzenman »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:27 pm Is the Column insulated ?......if not that will also help.
Yes I insulated it upon your suggestion with a couple layers of reflectix.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Demy »

Make sure the packaging is not overly tight.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by kimbodious »

@Scheutz, are you trying to heat up the boiler as quick as possible? If you are you are putting your wash in to a highly agitated (smeared) state. An analogy would be trying to open a bottle of champagne and pour glasses after shaking the bottle.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Yummyrum »

Schuetzenman wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:28 pm ABV was 95-ish and takeoff rate was about 1.5qt per hour, although honestly I am still working out the best way to measure this.
I use a 100ml measuring cylinder and fill it for 1min .
Then multiply by 60 .

If I collect 20ml in a minuate , I’m collecting 1.2l /hr .

Obviously , the longer collect for , the more accurate the reading . So if you collect for 2 minutes , multiply by 30 .

Collect for 3 min , multiply by 20 .
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by NormandieStill »

I do the same but time the time taken to collect a certain amount (usually 50ml). The maths is a little more complicated, but it keeps me occupied while running the still.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Setsumi »

Just time the collection for 250ml multiply by 4 equals minutes per Lt. If time is more than 60 mins divide by 60 to give Lt per hour. Now, gallons per hour takes real math...
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Schuetzenman »

Demy wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:09 pm Make sure the packaging is not overly tight.
Awesome I will check this. I have it in 2 24” sections, one is tighter than the other, I will loosen it up.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Schuetzenman »

kimbodious wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:39 am @Scheutz, are you trying to heat up the boiler as quick as possible? If you are you are putting your wash in to a highly agitated (smeared) state. An analogy would be trying to open a bottle of champagne and pour glasses after shaking the bottle.
I did heat I quickly and actually flooded my column, but I knocked the heat back and held it in full reflux for about half an hour before starting to take anything off.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Demy »

One thing I do when it starts to heat the column is slowly lower the heat down to the targhet power, a little experience will tell the targhet power
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by cmac62 »

I was wondering how to accurately measure my take off. Thanks for the info on that. I recently did my sac run, and put the product back into the boiler and ran it again for practice. I also insulated my column with the foam pipe insulation and I had a vigorous boil going on in the sight glass, it never spit out the top or increased the outflow, but I was wondering if this is a good thing or not?

So with a CCVM the ABV should stay fairly constant but the take off slows down when nearing the end of the run.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by still_stirrin »

cmac62 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:46 am I was wondering how to accurately measure my take off. Thanks for the info on that. I recently did my sac run, and put the product back into the boiler and ran it again for practice. I also insulated my column with the foam pipe insulation and I had a vigorous boil going on in the sight glass, it never spit out the top or increased the outflow, but I was wondering if this is a good thing or not?

So with a CCVM the ABV should stay fairly constant but the take off slows down when nearing the end of the run.
Where is the “sight glass” located? At the top of the column, or below it? If at the top, you’re flooding the column. If at the bottom, it’s normal reflux activity.

Because a VM (or CCVM) regulates the reflux ratio by the split of vapor ratio between the reflux condenser and the product outlet, as the alcohol in the vapor diminishes, the product output will similarly reduce…until it all-but stops producing.

However, because the reflux ratio is still high, the purity at the spout will stay high too, even as the flow diminishes. Adjusting the valve (or coolant flow to the CCVM RC) will adjust the ratio and could result in the purity falling, often quite rapidly.

One advantage of the vapor managed stills is that it is not sensitive to the vapor production rate, so adding heat won’t change the purity significantly, only the production rate at the spout.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Deplorable »

As said above, heat up slowly. My last reflux run I took an hour to bring the 10.5 gallon charge from 60°f to a boil. I let the column stabilize and took the 1st 400ml off at almost 2 drops a second before increasing take off to about 3 to 5 dps for the next 1600ml. Then I brought it up to 1l/hour and left it alone for 12 hours changing jars every half hour. Any faster on my 2 inch column and my proof started to suffer.
Push it too fast and you'll smear tails into the hearts. Let it run at or just below a liter per hour, and if your packing is good you'll leave the tails in the boiler. At least that was my experience on this last all feints run.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by EricTheRed »

Ditto what Deploable said.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

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Schuetzenman wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:01 pm Alright, working on making neutral, last time I was still in it sounded like the column was loading up and then dumping back into the boiler. Thoughts on what could be causing this? Do I need more heat, or less? No signs of flooding in my sight glass. Obviously the column was not stabilized so my product suffered greatly. Any advice to help the learning curve is appreciated.
Having just gone through the process myself.

With the cooling water running to the RC and before the column is stabilized, the distillate should be streaming down the sight glass, and should do so for the duration of the column stabilization.

By not stabilizing you have lost the compression factor in the fractions you get from stabilising so you probably have lots of smearing. Dilute it and run it again, more practice.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Andrew_90 »

Here is a clip of my sight glass under operation.

You can see the distillate streaming down the sight glass sides as well as dripping down. It was the same when the column was being stabilized. The video posted is during the actual spirit run, the bubbling is about an inch above the packing.

https://mavness.co.za/vid/ginstillpercolating.mp4
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

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still_stirrin wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:56 am
cmac62 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:46 am I was wondering how to accurately measure my take off. Thanks for the info on that. I recently did my sac run, and put the product back into the boiler and ran it again for practice. I also insulated my column with the foam pipe insulation and I had a vigorous boil going on in the sight glass, it never spit out the top or increased the outflow, but I was wondering if this is a good thing or not?

So with a CCVM the ABV should stay fairly constant but the take off slows down when nearing the end of the run.
Where is the “sight glass” located? At the top of the column, or below it? If at the top, you’re flooding the column. If at the bottom, it’s normal reflux activity.

Because a VM (or CCVM) regulates the reflux ratio by the split of vapor ratio between the reflux condenser and the product outlet, as the alcohol in the vapor diminishes, the product output will similarly reduce…until it all-but stops producing.

However, because the reflux ratio is still high, the purity at the spout will stay high too, even as the flow diminishes. Adjusting the valve (or coolant flow to the CCVM RC) will adjust the ratio and could result in the purity falling, often quite rapidly.

One advantage of the vapor managed stills is that it is not sensitive to the vapor production rate, so adding heat won’t change the purity significantly, only the production rate at the spout.
My sight glass is at the top, right below the product T, so the column is flooded. I guess I'll need to back off the heat. Using propane this is often difficult because my burner will blow/go out if I reduce it too much. I have a Anvil Foundry that I can use as a boiler, but no 240 outlet at this time. Is a simmer good enough? Because when brewing beer that is all I'm able to achieve. Of course with the lid closed it will boil more vigorously. Should I leave the insulation off of the column. Thanks
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by still_stirrin »

So, the flooding occurs because of the rate vapor produced and that is directly proportional to the heat input and to some degree, the volatility of the wash. Lower volatile washes (more water content) can tolerate more heat input for equivalent vapor production rates.

The insulation of the column allows for better heat exchange in the column’s packing. Removing the insulation would allow heat to escape but that would affect the reflux efficiency and likely your purity would fall. If the goal is high purity, which is usually the objective of the reflux column, then removing insulation would be counterproductive.

So, seeing the flooding at the top indicates you need to reduce the heat input slightly. Mind you, it won’t take much reduction … just enough so it doesn’t flood the top. A little “puddle” at the top is OK as long as it doesn’t continue to grow in depth. Looser packing density would also help reflux without as much flooding.

Propane burners can be challenging to regulate accurately, especially towards the “low settings”. Plugging a burner hole, or 2, may allow you to turn the heat down a little and still keep the flame from “blowing out”. Just grasping at straws here…
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by kimbodious »

still_stirrin wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:13 am So, seeing the flooding at the top indicates you need to reduce the heat input slightly. Mind you, it won’t take much reduction … just enough so it doesn’t flood the top. A little “puddle” at the top is OK as long as it doesn’t continue to grow in depth. Looser packing density would also help reflux without as much flooding.
+1m excellent explanation ss!

I have slightly reduced packing for this reason but that gives a slight reduction in reflux at that vapour speed. I make up for the reduction in reflux by increasing vapour speed because now I can because there is a lower risk of flooding.
Last edited by kimbodious on Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

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Andrew_90 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:31 am Here is a clip of my sight glass under operation.

You can see the distillate streaming down the sight glass sides as well as dripping down. It was the same when the column was being stabilized. The video posted is during the actual spirit run, the bubbling is about an inch above the packing.

https://mavness.co.za/vid/ginstillpercolating.mp4
So effectively the video I posted shows my column flooding?
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Re: Issues driving my CCVM- total noob

Post by Yummyrum »

Andrew , I’d call that flooding . It is right on that critical cusp where it can either continue to rise or fall back into packing . If there is fluid above the packing , its flooded .

Some folk are happy to run like that . I tried it a few times too but I couldn’t detect any higher ABV than when I reduced power a bit to get the fluid level back into the packing .

And while it is good to have as much liquid as yiu can in the packing for exchange , it can reach a point where there isn’t enough liquid falling back fast enough to exchange with the rising vapour .

As you can imagine this results in a fall in AVB .
So it is best IMO to run with the liquid below the top of the packing . This ensures there is the maximum liquid returning without risk of of it flooding .
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