Infected pear cider

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counterfeitfake
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Infected pear cider

Post by counterfeitfake »

Almost four years ago, my wife and I bought a house with a pear tree in the backyard, and we watch it drop hundreds of pounds of fruit every summer. I've been thinking about making some pear brandy this whole time, and I may have a chance soon. I was able to buy a package of distilling equipment off a friend of mine a couple months ago.

I have to admit I was quite careless while pressing the cider, we put in a lot of iffy fruit and my only attempt at sanitization of the fruit was campden tablets before pitching the yeast. The ferment went for a few weeks, when I looked at it I saw quite a bit of white fuzz growing on one fermenter, and less white fuzz but some black chunks in the other one. The must smelled quite funky, not exactly baby vomit, but I think a bit sulphurous. I racked to glass carboys to wait for it to clear.

It's been over a week and the clearing is very slow. When I've removed the airlocks the smell seems still very funky and maybe a little less sulphurous. The appearance is also pretty weird, have a look.
cider.jpg
What is the prognosis for this stuff? I don't know what I think about the color, it could be stratification of yeast trying to settle out, or it could be something new trying to grow. I figure I'm going to run it almost regardless. I might put some sparkalloid in to speed up the settling. Any tips or insight is appreciated!
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I don’t see any fuzzy stuff! Run it!

What was the SG/FG?

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shadylane
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by shadylane »

counterfeitfake wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:55 pm

What is the prognosis for this stuff? I don't know what I think about the color, it could be stratification of yeast trying to settle out, or it could be something new trying to grow. I figure I'm going to run it almost regardless. I might put some sparkalloid in to speed up the settling. Any tips or insight is appreciated!
Looks damn good to me.
Do you have a hydrometer?
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shadylane
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by shadylane »

counterfeitfake wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:55 pm

It's been over a week and the clearing is very slow.

I missed that the first time around.
It's going to take more than a week.
What temp is it fermenting at?
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by Stonecutter »

shadylane wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:01 pm
counterfeitfake wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:55 pm

What is the prognosis for this stuff? I don't know what I think about the color, it could be stratification of yeast trying to settle out, or it could be something new trying to grow. I figure I'm going to run it almost regardless. I might put some sparkalloid in to speed up the settling. Any tips or insight is appreciated!
Looks damn good to me.
Do you have a hydrometer?
+1 A hydrometer will help with the decision making. Did you happen to get an original gravity reading? Give it a taste.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by counterfeitfake »

I took an OG reading and I can't find it (very sloppy process this time!) but the gravity when I racked it was 1.010. Seems a little high but I didn't want it sitting in the fermenter any longer. When I racked it, it started offgassing again, but it basically stopped within a day.

Most of the ferment was done around 68 or 70 degrees. It's in my basement hanging around 64 degrees now.

It tasted... okay. Not very sweet. Hard to separate the taste from the somewhat unpleasant smells. It has a really earthy character I haven't had in any of my previous beers or wines.

What do y'all think about degassing?
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NZChris
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Re: Infected pear cider

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Because you put Campden tablets in it, it might be better to make wine with it. SO2 is difficult to remove. There is a thread where someone posted a method, but I've never had to try it.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by NZChris »

The vomit smell should disappear without help. If in doubt, search the site for it.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by MihiT »

You didn't boil the crushed fruit at all?
I've tried pears a couple times and always ended up with the wild yeast (aerobic, on the skins) taking over (using commercial cider yeasts)

Pear vinegar comes in handy for dry curing meat, and on salads though...

Fermenting and clearing takes "as long as it takes" I wouldn't be to worried cos it wasn't done in a week. As long as it's sealed it should be able to burp the worst of the off flavours.

Two options, stash it and forget it for a few months, or run it and find out!
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by Stonecutter »

Rack it, degas it for a couple minutes and then once transferred back into your fermenter stuff a big ass roll of copper mesh in there. After a couple of days the smell should go away. I had success with that method for H2S (rotten egg smell). However, if it’s SO2 (smells like matches) I can’t help you there.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by Bee »

"Iffy" fruit is why distilling was invented!
OK, maybe not really, but would you believe wine?
Seriously, in days when starvation was a real threat, people didn't throw away "iffy" fruit or grain. They did whatever they could to make/keep it consumable.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by stillanoob »

I've had some similar blackish stuff in some pear cider. Never had it with any other fruit. My personal experience has been that I can taste the funk after running but many swear otherwise.

In the future, pick sooner. Pears ripen nicely off the tree. I rinse the fruit in an idophor solution before grinding and pressing. This helps suppress the natural yeast and other buggies on the skin. Pear is not very acidic and gets infected easily so use excellent sanitation protocols. Don't be in a hurry for it to ferment. Don't worry about the S.G.. It is what it is and opening and messing with pear to check it is asking for infection. When it starts to clear it is done enough to run.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by counterfeitfake »

I think the original gravity was around 1.055, because I remember calculating it would yield in the low 7% range if it got down around 1.0. If that's true then it would be around 5.9% right now.
Bee wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:57 am "Iffy" fruit is why distilling was invented!
OK, maybe not really, but would you believe wine?
Seriously, in days when starvation was a real threat, people didn't throw away "iffy" fruit or grain. They did whatever they could to make/keep it consumable.
I'm on board, this is actually what the pear brandy is all about. We have apple maggots bad here and basically all the fruit gets infected. The tree starts dropping fruit in August and doesn't stop until October. This time around I picked a lot of pears and froze them at once. I think some process where I ran multiple smaller batches might work better. I've also looked into netting methods for sparing the fruit, but haven't attempted any yet. All suggestions welcome.

These are actually asian pears, by the way.
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Re: Infected pear cider

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MihiT wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:44 pm You didn't boil the crushed fruit at all?
No, I did that with the plum wine I made, but with the pears I ground them and pressed them. It might have been smarter to have dipped the fruit in star-san or something prior to grinding.

I've read lots of opinions that campden tablets are a no-go for distilling, lots of opinions that it's not a problem, and I don't know how to distinguish who is right. My still is copper which I understand will help.
Stonecutter wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:03 am Rack it, degas it for a couple minutes and then once transferred back into your fermenter stuff a big ass roll of copper mesh in there. After a couple of days the smell should go away. I had success with that method for H2S (rotten egg smell). However, if it’s SO2 (smells like matches) I can’t help you there.
Rack again after it settles? I do have a bunch of copper packing I can use.

I've also read lots of different opinions about sparkalloid.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by jonnys_spirit »

counterfeitfake wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:11 am
MihiT wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:44 pm You didn't boil the crushed fruit at all?
No, I did that with the plum wine I made, but with the pears I ground them and pressed them. It might have been smarter to have dipped the fruit in star-san or something prior to grinding.

I've read lots of opinions that campden tablets are a no-go for distilling, lots of opinions that it's not a problem, and I don't know how to distinguish who is right. My still is copper which I understand will help.
Stonecutter wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:03 am Rack it, degas it for a couple minutes and then once transferred back into your fermenter stuff a big ass roll of copper mesh in there. After a couple of days the smell should go away. I had success with that method for H2S (rotten egg smell). However, if it’s SO2 (smells like matches) I can’t help you there.
Rack again after it settles? I do have a bunch of copper packing I can use.

I've also read lots of different opinions about sparkalloid.
I distilled some wine brandy this past summer and even though I had minimal SO2 treatment of the wine during fermentation and bulk aging it came over quite strong in the low wines distillate. I treated with copper (which is really for H2S not SO2) and also used H2O2 to treat for the SO2. Odin has a calc on his site for H2O2 dosing based on how much SO2 is in the wine. This worked great for me to remediate the SO2 but I'd rather not have the issue in the first place and risk losing the product since the SO2 was very strong and concentrated - unuseable without remediation.

Cheers!
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by NZChris »

counterfeitfake wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:11 am I've read lots of opinions that campden tablets are a no-go for distilling, lots of opinions that it's not a problem, and I don't know how to distinguish who is right. My still is copper which I understand will help.
That's when you should do research to find the best answer instead of picking a convenient opinion, or tossing a coin. I've never used Campden for distilling because my research told me it was difficult to remove, so I've never had to try.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by greggn »

NZChris wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:10 pm
counterfeitfake wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:11 am I don't know how to distinguish who is right.
That's when you should do research

I'll take that one step further ...

Research a topic using *trusted* sources. If Home Distiller universally advocates one approach but a random poster on YouTube suggests another ... is that really "conflicting information" ?

This community is driving toward best practices. Others tend to be motivated by convenience.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by jonnys_spirit »

greggn wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:14 pm
NZChris wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:10 pm
counterfeitfake wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:11 am I don't know how to distinguish who is right.
That's when you should do research

I'll take that one step further ...

Research a topic using *trusted* sources. If Home Distiller universally advocates one approach but a random poster on YouTube suggests another ... is that really "conflicting information" ?

This community is driving toward best practices. Others tend to be motivated by convenience.
I certainly encourage research and best practices. Best to avoid adding SO2 into ferments that you intend to distill but sometimes we are presented with a bunch of wine already fermented that needs SO2 remediated. I didn't add H202 (Hydrogen peroxide) to the wine but I did add it to the low-wines I stripped from about 45 gallons of wine and it definitely removed the SO2.. I estimated the SO2 based on what my wine notes said I added and rounded up.. I do have some labs to measure SO2 but I just went with an estimate. H2O2 added to wine will encourage oxidation too (ie; browning of the wine)..

https://istillblog.com/2018/08/23/odin-removes-sulfur/

Good luck if you need SO2 remediation and let us know how it goes for you!

Cheers,
j
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counterfeitfake
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by counterfeitfake »

NZChris wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:10 pm
counterfeitfake wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:11 am I've read lots of opinions that campden tablets are a no-go for distilling, lots of opinions that it's not a problem, and I don't know how to distinguish who is right. My still is copper which I understand will help.
That's when you should do research to find the best answer instead of picking a convenient opinion, or tossing a coin. I've never used Campden for distilling because my research told me it was difficult to remove, so I've never had to try.
Please give me some credit; most of the reading I did was on this site, and I didn't see any clear consensus. I may have misunderstood.

At any rate, it's good to know there are ways to fix it, thanks johnnys_spirit. I do in fact have a whole lot of plum wine that isn't being drunk very fast, and might want to make brandy out of that too.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by NZChris »

I don't count internet forums so much as research, but as a place to get ideas and direction for research and experimentation.

A consensus is only that and I've watched it change on some things during the time I've been here. The chemistry, or physics, didn't change, just what the majority believed it was.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by shadylane »

counterfeitfake wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:28 pm
Please give me some credit; most of the reading I did was on this site, and I didn't see any clear consensus. I may have misunderstood.
Because there's so many ways to skin a cat
Here on the forum some things can't have a clear consensus.
You just have to try different ways and make up your own mind based on experience. :wink:
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by NZChris »

shadylane wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:57 pm
counterfeitfake wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:28 pm
Please give me some credit; most of the reading I did was on this site, and I didn't see any clear consensus. I may have misunderstood.
Because there's so many ways to skin a cat
Here on the forum some things can't have a clear consensus.
You just have to try different ways and make up your own mind based on experience. :wink:
On any forum you will get a variety of posters, from old hands who are still learning, to newbies who know everything already and everything in between. When looking at published research, I check out the qualifications and background of the researcher before I spend too much time studying their research and, if what they are saying doesn't quite sound right, I go back and look at their qualifications again.
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Re: Infected pear cider

Post by cranky »

counterfeitfake wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:05 am These are actually asian pears, by the way.
When I read your original post on this thread I said to myself "I bet he has Shinseiki pears". In my experience Shinseikis have a very funky smell and the wine/cider/pery tastes like old sweat socks :sick: They distill with an extreme floral note to the point of tasting like they got too close to the fabric sheets when airing out. Aged a while it calms down to, as my wife says "little white flower" taste. Most people don't like it on it's own, my wife does though. I find at a 10-25% Shinseiki pear brandy to 75-90% apple it makes the brandy very special.

An opinion on a couple suggestions
MihiT wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:44 pm You didn't boil the crushed fruit at all?
Don't boil pears, apples or their juice it takes away flavor. If you feel the need to pasteurize heat it to exactly 170 degrees then cool it down as quickly as possible. It only requires a few seconds at 170f to be pasteurized.

Don't use compden either if you plan on distilling (I know, others have already addressed that)

I actually have gotten quite sloppy with my processes and have had no serious issues, although my Shinseiki ferment this year looked infected early but then cleared up and was fine.
stillanoob wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:17 am In the future, pick sooner. Pears ripen nicely off the tree.
This is a good suggestion for European pears, you should pick Euro pears before they actually ripen and fall off the tree but Asian pears don't ripen the same and should be allowed to ripen on the tree.
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Re: Infected pear cider

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counterfeitfake wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:47 pm
Most of the ferment was done around 68 or 70 degrees. It's in my basement hanging around 64 degrees now.
I've never done pears. I have done some very cold ferments and they are slooooooow. like all winter slow.
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