Determining Tails from a T500

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Hudster2001
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Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Hudster2001 »

I'm having real issues separating heads, hearts and tails on what comes out my T500 column, the heads I seem to be getting ok, the early cuts leave a burning sensation in my mouth, and when watered down to 30% abv leave a weird but not entirely unpleasant taste.

Tails however are a harder thing to work out. The T500 does a pretty good job of holding back any tails.
From a 25l sugar wash run at 12% abv, I am getting about 3L of Neutral spirit at a fairly consistent 92% abv, with a water output of between 55 and 58 deg c. I keep records of every jar, its output temp and abv, and adjust abv for temperature.
I discard the first 200ml of the run as foreshots, it makes an excellent window cleaner, then I take my cuts at 150ml intervals, normally 20 to 21 jars in total, and leave the jars to air out for 48 hours. I then close up the jars and leave it another 5 days before laying it all out and smelling and tasting each one.
I normally immediately discard the first 600ml and normally the last 300ml, based on smell, they normally smell sharp but not unpleasant, I then smell every remaining jar and they smell ok, then take a sample at 30% abv, using hot water to release any odours, and they all taste ok, some are better than others, especially in the middle of the run.
But the tails is proving difficult to determine, there is no wet dog, carboard smell, the ABV is high, the end jars taste just as sweet as the middle jars.
I had an issue with clouding on my last run, I thought it was minerals from the spring water, I charcoal filtered it and it cleared up, but not completely clear, I ended up re-running it, I wouldn't serve up anything sub par to anyone but me, and it had a very slight cloud to it, and looking back i'm now 100% i had some tails in there.

Now I have another batch ready, its airing out now, but I'm worried I might ruin this batch as well by including any tails.
everything I can find to read about tails talks about tails from a pot still and says its obvious based on temperature, ABV and odour, I don't have any of these to go on with the T500, ABV is consistent, there is no off odour and I only have water output temp to go on.

Can anyone point me in the direction of what I should be doing to make a good blend and keep any oils in the tails out and have a clear final product.
smokeybowls
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by smokeybowls »

I struggled with this also . I've been distilling for two years now and am just now perfecting my cuts. There is some great info on making cuts in this forum. Also the YouTube channel still-it has a great video called making kickass cuts .
For me I just collect small amounts on small half pint jars . Start sampling from the middle of the run and work towards the heads and tells. What helped me was to collect everything even foreshots . Tails has a funk to it , a kinda eck taste on the back end . If you collect in small containers you can notice it slightly in one jar and more the farther down the line you go. It just takes time to develop your process. Be patient and not too hard on yourself. Hell if it clouds a little but tastes good , throw some oak on it and age it a little while. Oak does a hella job hiding mistakes . Just my novice input .
Dathhu
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Dathhu »

From a fellow (ex)T500 user to another, it's a good still to start on but has several flaws.

Firstly would be the whole turbo package, turbo still, turbo yeast etc. but it sounds like you're running another type of wash if you're only doing 12%, that's a good start.

Second, is running by numbers. The temps don't mean shit, the output is what matters. A couple drips per second is great for purity, a broken stream is great for output. For the T500, I'd prefer to go low and slow, it might take some time but it'll taste way better than something run hot and fast. Which brings me to the next point...

Third, no power control... The best thing I ever did with the T500 was plug it into a voltage controller. Way easier to dial the power back a little, bump the water a touch than trying to get the water flowing right constantly throughout the run. The needle valve is way to touchy on the T500, took way too long to get it running just right.

Fourth, strip runs. If you can make/buy some sort of pot still head for the T500 do it. You won't regret it. Strip 2, 3 runs then do the spirit run. You'll be able to make cuts a lot more easily and you'll probably see better results overall.

Dan

PS.
Keep the boiler even if you do upgrade, it's great for gins, macerations etc.
Dathhu
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Dathhu »

Also, when the tails come through, they come in hard and nasty. If you're cutting in small jars you should be good though.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Great advice and comments on T500 use Dathhu :thumbup:
. We seem to get many many new distillers here using T500s
I rarely notice any of them helping others once they have the experience to do so.
Thanks for your input.
Dathhu
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Dathhu »

T500 seems to be the favourite down under, probably because that's what the brew shops push here.

Honestly, it's not a bad still if you're after neutral, if you can control it.

Biggest upgrade cost me $10 for the power control.
Dathhu
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Dathhu »

If they made an all metal version, I'd be all for it.
CoogeeBoy
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by CoogeeBoy »

Dathhu wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:11 am From a fellow (ex)T500 user to another, it's a good still to start on but has several flaws.

Firstly would be the whole turbo package, turbo still, turbo yeast etc. but it sounds like you're running another type of wash if you're only doing 12%, that's a good start.

Fourth, strip runs. If you can make/buy some sort of pot still head for the T500 do it. You won't regret it. Strip 2, 3 runs then do the spirit run. You'll be able to make cuts a lot more easily and you'll probably see better results overall.

Dan
For stripping runs, I take out all the copper and stainless steel scrubs and run it as a pot still. It goes quite well and I recycle the water and use it for my spirit run.

I also see 12% as a high abv for your wash and wonder what recipe you are using. I am no expert but I suspect you are pushing your yeast a bit there.

Finally, I have done a couple of AG runs and this has highlighted the difference between the neutrals believe it or not, the sugar wash has more "burn" to it initially but this does dissipate after you have let the diluted spirit settle. The problem with the AG is that it is a lot more time consuming preparing the wash (or mash) and a lot more expensive. I am only going to use my AG for a whisky (Santa, if you are reading this, I will send you my address for that barrel I have on my wish list)

Just sayin.....
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
CoogeeBoy
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by CoogeeBoy »

Hudster2001 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:11 pm
Tails however are a harder thing to work out. The T500 does a pretty good job of holding back any tails.
But the tails is proving difficult to determine, there is no wet dog, carboard smell, the ABV is high, the end jars taste just as sweet as the middle jars.
Are you running it to the end, when there is no more alcohol at all? I find a pretty distinctive tail smell at the end, all of the smells in it, wet dog, cardboard etc etc
Hudster2001 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:11 pm
I discard the first 200ml of the run as foreshots, it makes an excellent window cleaner, then I take my cuts at 150ml intervals, normally 20 to 21 jars in total, and leave the jars to air out for 48 hours. I then close up the jars and leave it another 5 days before laying it all out and smelling and tasting each one.
I normally immediately discard the first 600ml and normally the last 300ml, based on smell, they normally smell sharp but not unpleasant, I then smell every remaining jar and they smell ok, then take a sample at 30% abv, using hot water to release any odours, and they all taste ok, some are better than others, especially in the middle of the run.
150ml is a small cut once you are past the heads, I tend to do 500ml cuts knowing that I am going to get a good 2l - 2.5l before any tails
Finally, don't throw that 600ml out, that is a lot to discard for a neutral IMO but more importantly, keep them in your feints jar.
Taking a break while I get a new still completed....
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Saltbush Bill »

As others have said , stripping your wash before hand and then running low wines in a T500 is one of the things that will really improve your product.
Dathhu
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Dathhu »

Hudster2001,

Sorry for basically shouting over your question with my thoughts on the T500.

My main problem with the T500 is it tends to run too hot for a good spirit run. All the water control can do is try and manage that. The column isn't big enough for sufficient refluxing to happen.

Drop the power down to about 3/4, something magical happens :)

If you've only got the T500 and can't buy/make any add-ons then run a couple batches as hard and fast as you can through it.

Re-run them again together, with as much reflux as possible. The temps won't help you here if you're following the stillspirits guidelines.

The thermometer on mine was only in the high 40C range, yet was pouring out the spout. Coolant water temp means nothing compared to vapour temps.

I was never happy with a one and done on the T500, double distilled made it passable with cuts.

Try and do a one and done, heads, hearts, tails all going to be smeared...
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Dathhu wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:06 pm The temps won't help you here if you're following the stillspirits guidelines.
The thermometer on mine was only in the high 40C range, yet was pouring out the spout. Coolant water temp means nothing compared to vapour temps.
The above advice is spot on, but you don't need to know vapor temp either.
Much easier to watch the amount of product leaving the spout and run them that way......forget the temps....they are an extremely rough guide only.
A very slow drip is very high reflux, and where you should be to draw off foreshots, a faster drip to take off heads, a very fast drip to a broken stream to take off hearts.
Ideally the slower you make the still produce the more compressed the fractions and the better / cleaner the spirit will be.
The only reason I suggest different speeds for different parts of the run is that if you do the whole run at a SLOOOOOW drip ...........you might go a little crazy before you finish the run.
Dathhu
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Dathhu »

+1 Saltbush Bill

Drips for fores and heads.

Slow for the good hearts. And yeah, taking a whole day to do a run seems crazy at first, but then you taste the difference....

Then you do a double batch, takes even longer.... But is easier to cut. Wastes more of your day... But when done right, with a good wash and strip it'll make you more than happy you did it.

Agree on the vapour temp too. Just using T500 temps as a guide is ok, learning how it works is bliss.
Hudster2001
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Hudster2001 »

Thanks for the advice, one thing I forgot to mention. I didn't buy the still spirits boiler, I bought the spiritworks boiler, it has dual power supplies, 1750w and 500w, as well as temperature controls and timers.
I bought myself a build it yourself a alembic condenser for my still this weekend, so my next run, I'll strip it with that, then run it through the column.
Dathhu
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Dathhu »

Not familiar with that boiler myself, the dual elements sound great for distilling, the temp control and timers not so much.

If you can run both elements for a stripping run with the alembic head it sounds ideal for the size of your still and your current experience. If you have the fermenter capacity, try running two batches through the pot still and then combine both through the T500 for a spirit run. It'll be a bigger day, twice as much alcohol and all, but it'll be so much easier to pick out your cuts compared to one and done.

If you do that, I'd probably only use the 1750w element on the spirit run. Might take a little longer, but it will honestly taste so much better. Will be a lot easier to balance the water as well. Feel free to use both elements for the heat up, but using both for a spirit run will smear it like crazy due to the small size of the T500 column

If you only have the one batch, water it down well. The excess water in the boiler will help absorb the off flavours.

Also, if you haven't already, read up a bit on cuts. If you can, take about 100ml, 3-4oz at a time until you get the feel of it. Smell them, taste them and you'll soon understand why and how cuts are done. Kiwi's guide is a good start.
Dathhu
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Re: Determining Tails from a T500

Post by Dathhu »

Also, if you're still wondering about tails, you'll be able to get a better idea of the smells and tastes from the last stuff of the stripping run. You'll definitely be able to pick up the off smells and flavours there st lot easier than just a reflux run.

YMMV, but I find heads a lot easier to pick than the tails transition. Heads I can pick with my nose, feeling a burning, prickly smell. Tails, small increments and tasting is my best bet. Might smell ok, but a diluted taste is so much different.

Would be happy for more experienced members to share any thoughts, only really just graduated from a T500 myself. T500 to pot still stripping, to CCVM for refluxing and now playing around with a bigger, stronger boiler.
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