Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

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Evil_Dark
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Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

Hy guys, just wanted to share with you my feedback on my first traditional spirit run that I made with UJSSM yesterday.
I usually run my UJSSM wash in my pot still like it was a spirit run (no stripping run before). Done it 10 times now, 2 different batches, 5th generation.

At first it was to develop my taste and cutting skills. Also, the hearts produced are so smooth, so I kept some of them to make some recepies like apple pie moonshine, strawberries liquors, etc. I even made some nice whisky with the nuclear aeging technique, and turned out pretty well (almost identical to canadian Club). So basically this was my little experience so far.
I've decided to make things "correctly" and the lasts runs that I made were runned fast to make stripping runs. Removed the foreshots and big evident heads out, to have a nicer stripping run product to work with.
Combined and diluted these stripping runs to 30%ABV and runned it super slowly like a spirit run... And the outcoming ABV was not that high, 84%. Anyway it is not meant to mean anything, so I continued like normal. Discarded the first 160ml as foreshots. Separated all into 200ml jars.
When I got like 15 jars collected, I began to taste to find the head cuts... And damn the heads were hard/bad, and there were more heads than what I was used to. 2L (10 jars) of product had too much heads on it, compared to 1.2L - 1.5L when I do a first pass slow run.
The hearts were smooth, but whoa!! only one jar of 200ml is what I can call "hearts"! The tails are coming very quickly onto the other samples.

Got 4.2L of total products, before the ABV dropped below 35%ABV and I decided to place them on a big jar for tails collecting. They were'nt cloudy as I'm used to.
So it is dissapointing regarding the quality and the quantity of products collected with a spirit run, compared to my "first pass distill" that I was used to! Not taking account all the extra efforts / energy / time involved onto this spirit run compared to the first pass distill...

So my questions are:
What kind of improvement should I expect from a spirit run VS a first pass distill? Smoothness? Higher ABV collected? More neutral product or reversely more tasty product?

And how many of you had tried a first pass distill?

Thanks guys for your inputs / opinions.

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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I've tried one and done pot still runs and prefer double distillation. My experiences are different from what you have described. These days I'll strip three to four charges down to total ABV of about 25% (only taking a fores cut - no heads cut on the strip) then charge the boiler with all three combined low wines and do a spirit run. Spirit run is sorta low and slow (pencil lead sized takeoff stream) collected into 20-30 jars then usually aired for a day and cut for feints & hearts. 16g boiler with this method typically yields 2.5-3 gallons barrel strength hearts for me.

Do you have any pics of your setup?

Thanks!
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by zed255 »

Don't make cuts on the strip as you will be tossing what will become part of your hearts on the spirit run. I only take a very small foreshot slowly off my strip runs then go as fast and as hard as I can.

Also, if you had to dilute the low wines you didn't run deep enough. Again, don't make any cuts on the strip run. Tails actually are easier to get good alcohol out of than heads, IMHO, and are worth pulling out on the strip.

I always get more and better product with a double distillation. There will be more flavour in a one-and-done because there's more smearing of different fractions, but the best of the hearts will be smaller in my experience.

In the end you only have to please yourself, so if single pot still runs are your thing I won't judge.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Dathhu »

84% seems pretty high to me on a spirit run with a pot still...
Yet you think it's low? Never had anything that high except maybe some of the heads, early hearts...

I'm in agreement with Zed, run deep and don't cut on the strip runs, cut on the spirit run. Only cut I'd consider would be fores, like Jonny said. If you're diluting low wines, you didn't strip far enough.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by NZChris »

84% is very high. My UJSSM heart cuts are around 65%. What still are you running?

Are you diluting with fresh wash or with water?

Are your low wines cloudy? What is their ABV?

Removing a heads cut from low wines sounds like a bad idea, wasteful of flavor and good alcohol.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

NZChris wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:02 am 84% is very high. My UJSSM heart cuts are around 65%. What still are you running?
Well the starting of my collection is 84% (heads) at its maximum, but the hearts are usually more in the 62-60%ABV
Are you diluting with fresh wash or with water?
With Water
Are your low wines cloudy? What is their ABV?
No, my low wines were'nt cloudy (strip runs).
Removing a heads cut from low wines sounds like a bad idea, wasteful of flavor and good alcohol.
I think that it why I did'nt had a good quantity of hearts in the sspirit run, as I removed a good amount of potentialy good alcool with these heads. But it does'nt explain the taste, but no big deal... If the quality is good for me with single pass distill, why should I bother doing multiple pass? It may also depends on the type of wash / mash.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:11 am Do you have any pics of your setup?
Thanks!
-jonny
It's a 40L boiler with an empty 2in column, about 16in long. I have an internal 3KW element. No good pics on hand sorry, will post some later.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by NZChris »

What is the ABV of your single pass UJSSM heart cut?
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by kimbodious »

Strip fast and run deep. I quit after collecting a specific volume of low wines and don’t make cuts and I don’t measure ABV during a stripping run. The last part collected has hardly and odour or flavour at all. That tells me I have got all the flavour I can from the run. The combined low wines smell really bad.

Your technique for the spirit run sounds fine however you should leave your samples say 48 hours before assessing them. That will allow a lot of the volatiles time to evaporate off.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

NZChris wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:40 am What is the ABV of your single pass UJSSM heart cut?
It varies, they start to be nice hearts between 62% until 40%. These numbers varying about 4% from batch to batch, rarely higher than 62%.
I will also depends if I incorporate tails of the previous run in the current run. When I do, the nice flavors are boosted and this is also give higher general ABV collected, from head to hearts (seems logical as I crank up the alcool amount of the wash).

I still have all the samples on hand, will do another tasting session tonight to see if there is any improvements for the heart cut. Will be happy if I can widen my heart selection more than 1 jar!!

Thanks
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

kimbodious wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:15 pm Your technique for the spirit run sounds fine however you should leave your samples say 48 hours before assessing them. That will allow a lot of the volatiles time to evaporate off.
I will give them another taste tonight, I have blended the heads but the hearts and tails are still in separate 200ml jars.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Dathhu »

+1 to kimbodious

If you're making UJSSM for flavour, strip hard and deep.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by NZChris »

62-40% would give you quite a low combined heart cut, too low for what I want for anything for aging. If it's making you white dog you like, that's good, go for it.

I suspect that the running advice you were following for your double distilling had come from inexperienced distillers. What you described wasn't complete enough for us to know everything you did, but what was there didn't sound much like what happens in my shed.

Your description of doing the cuts is intriguing as what you describe shouldn't happen unless you have an unusually large amount of ethyl acetate in the low wines, but you had removed a 'heads cut' from the stripping run, which would have removed even more ethyl acetate than the foreshot you had also taken. In theory, your spirit run should have produced a lot less heads than anyone else's.
What ABV are you sampling your cuts at?
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

Okay, I've done a re-taste of my collected jars yesterday night, after a 24h rest.
Well, it tasted nastier that I've remembered!
This whole batch will end up wasted. Not sure what happened, but there is a taste that take place all over, not sure what it is, but it is like scorching/burned taste. I already scorched a rum batch, and it's not exactly the same taste. But it's not good.
I don't think that it's due to a conventional spirit run, it probably has more to do with something else going wrong.
I took out my electric element to have a look and it was not scorched, but it was darker than the last time. It's a water heater stainless element, and now it looks like a copper one... Not sure about this. I think that it wasn't "stainless" but rather a special coating like nickel plated or something (don't really know much about plating). Is this can be an issue?
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by zed255 »

I doubt the element material will be the issue. Mine appear to be copper after a few uses (that is, not stainless) and it doesn't impart any off flavours in my runs.

Is it a low watt density or ultra low watt density type? If not you could still be getting a scorch because the compact types effectively run the smaller surface area hotter. You should have one of the long foldback or wavy types, the stubby single straight loop is less desirable.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

zed255 wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:26 am I doubt the element material will be the issue. Mine appear to be copper after a few uses (that is, not stainless) and it doesn't impart any off flavours in my runs.

Is it a low watt density or ultra low watt density type? If not you could still be getting a scorch because the compact types effectively run the smaller surface area hotter. You should have one of the long foldback or wavy types, the stubby single straight loop is less desirable.
Ok I have a low watt density. Happy to hear that the discoloration is kinda common.
I have another wash of UJSSM ready that I will be able to distill tomorrow, so I'll be able to compare the taste and see if it is a taste that comes off my hardware or not.
It's bizarre as my spirit run was runed slowly, and the heat also was very shy, there is no way I would doubt that I've scorched it.
I will double check all my components to be sure that there is no one that start to have issues. I used only PTFE and stainless, so i'm not really worried about this but just in case, I better have a look.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by still_stirrin »

A lot of good correspondence here so far regarding your run, Evil. So, I’m not sure I can add much. But I’ll try.

First, while you’ve done several generations of UJSSM to date, just know that how the fermentation progresses can and will affect the products in the wash that you distill. Temperature, fermentation duration, yeast viability, nutrients, and even oxygen content at the start can affect congener levels and by-products in the wash. I suspect there were differences within this ferment that contributed to the anomalies associated here.

However, using the double distillation protocol, ie - “strip + spirit run” vs “one & done” will focus the fermentation by-products into different portions and proportions within the run. So, when making cuts, the collection jars will have different portions of heads, hearts, and tails accordingly.

Second, how you run the still will affect the “smearing” of portions through the run. If you run “hot & fast”, then you’ll get a lot of smearing. If you run “low & slow”, the fractions will be more discrete. But, using the 2X (double distillation) protocol should capture the most flavors in the wash and allow you to separate the fractions with better control. With the “low & slow” spirit run and collection into 18, or more jars, should give you a good measure with which to make cuts. But, making cuts does require some experience for what to include and what to exclude in the “keeper jar”.

So far, “what you fermented” and “how you ran it” are the two critical points to consider with your anomaly. The last point of concern is “what you use”, or the equipment. As noted by other commenters, the electric element could contribute to the “scorched” note you’ve claimed. But, if the wash wasn’t completely finished, or contained residual sugars, then it could likewise contribute a “scorched” note in the finished product, especially if you ran it hot on the stripping run. You would have noted this if you had sampled the low wines prior to the spirit run. As you know, a scorch is not “distilled out” in a spirit run. Rather, its character will be concentrated.

In summary, if you’ve noted a problem with the product from this double distillation run versus the one & done runs preceding, it would be wise to look at the processes that lead to the difference. I would sincerely doubt that double distillation is the culprit, rather the points outlined above.

Here’s a list to consider:
1. Recipe
2. Fermentation protocol - OG, yeast, O2, temperature, duration, etc.
3. Wash clearing upon ferment completion
4. Strip run speed and collection
5. Spirit run and collection - low & slow
6. Cut protocol - method of making cuts
7. Boiler design - size and heat source
8. Stillhead and condenser design - vapor tube size and vapor velocity

Sorry for the long post here. But this hobby has a lot to consider. It is difficult for us to troubleshoot your problems remotely, so you get “a lot of darts thrown at your dart board” trying to help you. Ultimately, it’s up to you to resolve your problems.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

Wow thanks a lot still_stirin for your complete response.
I didn't looked down the wash option. As far I can remember (I have taken a lot of notes of every runs that i made, so I'll be able to confirm that) my UJSSM washes were looking/smelling/tasting good, pretty similar to the other ones runned in the past in a single distill. The low wines collected were looking cristal clear.

I've runned the spirit run very slowly, never had a pen like outlet. Only drippin. Took me longer, but I was very on "slowly but quality" mode.
I don't remember the taste of the stripping runs, and I don't think I have any left. It would have been a good way to discover if that awful taste is coming from the wash or not. I do remember that the first stripping run I've made, I practiced myself and tasted all along the run to identify the cuts, and I discarded the heads. I was convinced that by doing this I would get an incredible smooth taste at the spirit run.

I think I will try hard to find where the nasty taste come from. If it come from my hardware, I will notice it right away in the begining of the next run.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

AHHHHHHHHH
I may found the provenance...
I diluted the low wines ABV to 30% with hot TAP WATER. Our tap water is not bad, but there is some chlorine on it...
I do remember using hot tap water to kick start the heating part of the spirit run... Is this can be the issue?
Can a spirit run bring up nasty tastes of the stuff included in the tap water?
I use our tap water to make my wash, but I usually mix it hadly then let it aerate for couples hours to let the chlorine evaporate.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by still_stirrin »

Chlorine will create a “phenolic” taste in a ferment, yes. Chlorophenols contribute a “smokey” taste and are detectable at very low taste thresholds. I would suspect you’d be able to taste it in the distiller’s beer. But, the phenols do not come over in the low wines unless you run the strip well into the backend.

And if you dilute the low wines with additional water, those phenols could again “infect” your product stream, although they won’t come over to the product until the very back end of the run.

But, chloride salts could affect the product tastes as a “metalic” quality. Again, the taste threshold is quite low for chlorides, so a little will seem like a lot.

Aging in charred (and toasted) oak will help buffer this all together. In fact, you may come to appreciate a little “smokey phenols” in the aged-in-oak whiskey.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by NZChris »

Adding water to low wines is a trick for making neutral. If you can't resist the temptation to shut strips down early, dilute with fresh wash or backset, water should be the last resort and it should be nice clean water. I strip down to ABVs used by commercial pot whisky distillers because they've had more experience distilling than anyone on any forum or Youtube, 24-27%.

I only run slow at the start of the spirit run, smelling each jar until the 'nail varnish' isn't strong, then winding the heat up. I leave the dial alone until my nose tells me I'm definitely into tails, the speed drops off during the run and I let that happen to minimize smearing.

It might pay to smell and taste your backset. If that's been nasty, it may have been the source of your problem.

What ABV are you tasting your samples at?
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Distillusioned »

Regarding the 84% ABV, OP might not be correcting for temperature. Even my "temperature compensating" refractometer can vary by 10% or more if I, say, put it in my pocket vs. leaving it on the table. Especially at the upper end of its range.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I've seen ABV's in that range at the beginning of a pot still run and I see it for considerably longer into the run on my small alembic split top w/rotating column - when running with no active reflux... On the larger still it might be 80'ish for the first jar or so but I haven't measured ABV's for the past few runs..
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by NZChris »

Distillusioned wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:03 pm Regarding the 84% ABV, OP might not be correcting for temperature. Even my "temperature compensating" refractometer can vary by 10% or more if I, say, put it in my pocket vs. leaving it on the table. Especially at the upper end of its range.
The refractive index peaks at around 80% then falls, e.g. 84% would read 75% on a refractometer.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by Evil_Dark »

Distillusioned wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:03 pm Regarding the 84% ABV, OP might not be correcting for temperature. Even my "temperature compensating" refractometer can vary by 10% or more if I, say, put it in my pocket vs. leaving it on the table. Especially at the upper end of its range.
Uou are right, I didn’t corrected for temperature. The spirit coming out of the still is not so hot, bit definitely more than 20C, more around 28-30C.
I will check on the chart what would be the corrected ABB
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

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NZChris wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:50 pm
Distillusioned wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:03 pm Regarding the 84% ABV, OP might not be correcting for temperature. Even my "temperature compensating" refractometer can vary by 10% or more if I, say, put it in my pocket vs. leaving it on the table. Especially at the upper end of its range.
The refractive index peaks at around 80% then falls, e.g. 84% would read 75% on a refractometer.
The upper marking on mine is 80%. The upper range is condensed vs. the lower end (same as a hy-drop-eter). It is pretty accurate through the entire range (provided the body is at 20C), though it is more difficult to read at the upper end. Not sure what you're trying to get at?
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by NZChris »

Distillusioned wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:42 pm
NZChris wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:50 pm
Distillusioned wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:03 pm Regarding the 84% ABV, OP might not be correcting for temperature. Even my "temperature compensating" refractometer can vary by 10% or more if I, say, put it in my pocket vs. leaving it on the table. Especially at the upper end of its range.
The refractive index peaks at around 80% then falls, e.g. 84% would read 75% on a refractometer.
The upper marking on mine is 80%. The upper range is condensed vs. the lower end (same as a hy-drop-eter). It is pretty accurate through the entire range (provided the body is at 20C), though it is more difficult to read at the upper end. Not sure what you're trying to get at?
If you are close to 80%, you need another device to tell you which side of 80% you are on before the reading can be trusted or calculated.

My alcohol refractometer is temperature corrected too, but the further it gets from 40%, the more inaccurate it gets, over 50% it's only good for entertainment. You get what you pay for. I don't complain because the 'toy' I bought to play with costs three or four hundred dollars less than a brand I would trust. If your refractometer isn't correctly allowing for temperature and you paid hundreds of dollars for a quality product, you should contact the manufacturer.
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Re: Dissapointed by Spirit run VS Simple pass distill

Post by kimbodious »

When you discarded big evident heads on your stripping run you obviously discarded a lot of hearts that was smeared through the heads. This left you with predominately tails for your spirit run. It is not the tap water or the equipment that is the issue, it is what you did or didn’t do during the stripping run. It is not a mistake, it is a learning opportunity. :thumbup:

on reflection that probably reads as being a bit harsh, I regret if it causes offence
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