AG advice for newbie from a newbie

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25Contender
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AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by 25Contender »

Being a newbie to distillation there are tons of hurdles and sometimes the issues can be hard to develop into a question. I have done tons of reading all over the internet and done way too much research. I will come across newbies asking questions on this site and I totally understand what they are asking but just shake my head at the “scolding” they get and then admonished to “do more reading”. Unfortunately reading doesn’t answer all questions. The question is easy if you know the answer.

I have failed trying to make an all grain twice. First time I didn’t really have any idea what I was doing and shouldn’t have tried an AG. Second fail I manage to weld a two inch pile of corn into the bottom of my pot.

3rd times a charm (maybe). I wanted to try a rye and used 60% rye, 30% corn and 10% two row. I started a 5 gallon pot at 7:30 pm. Brought it up around 190 degrees and cooked the corn for 45 minutes. Let it cool to 165 and added rye. Let it cool to 152 and added barley. Stirred pretty constantly. Then let it stay in the pot. Decided to bring out the big pot and make a 10 gallon batch. The 10 gallon batch started at 930 ish. Followed same procedure.

By 1:30am nothing had happened. Literally looked exactly the same. Brought the 5 gallon batch in and put on table. Still around 120 degrees. By 2 am I was wrecked and just aggravated. Didn’t look like any starch conversion was happening. Failed every starch test. I knew I had followed the recipe and just couldn’t figure out what I had done wrong.

Decided I was going to quit and go to bed. Left both batches in the pots and wrapped tight with blankets.

Next morning I went down at 8am and the 5 gallon batch was around 100 degrees had a cap and was fizzing. I guess the natural yeast had kicked off? I added a little more yeast and air locked it. Been constantly bubbling since. The 10 gallon batch looked the same as it did 6 hours before and was still around 115-120 degrees. I left it wrapped in blankets till 3 pm. Nothing had changed. I decided I was done again and drained the pot into two 5 gallon fermenting buckets, wrapped back up in blankets. Went down around 6, mash around 100 degrees and both had a cap and bubbling like mad. Pitched a little yeast and air locked em. Now to wait and see if it worked or is just my third fail.

Being a newbie I actually quit multiple times and was ready to dump it all out. All the reading you do tells you it takes time but they don’t tell you it takes a long time. Don’t let YouTube videos and recipes fool you. The starch to sugar conversion is not always obvious and the mash doesn’t alway immediately get a watery consistency after adding the malt. Just keep an eye on it and wait longer. Pick a good recipe and literally follow it to the letter. That way people might be able to identify where it went wrong. Don’t try to get cute with it and make changes. Not yet. If you follow the recipe it will likely work. All the “reading” that others will have you doing will have you throwing in oyster shells, lemons, raisins, a rabbits foot and adjusting the flux capacitor, just chasing problems that you don’t really have. Keep it simple and stay with the recipe. Good luck and I will hopefully have a report in a week or so.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by RockinRockies »

If you are doing batches under 20 gallons total just pick up 10 gallon home Depot igloo orange coolers, a roller Mill, and follow Booners casual to a T.

It is very easy IF you follow the recipe and make sure you keep the water boiling when you dump on the corn.
Add far as grains, I use unmalted and lower the initial temp... Oh and the cost... Significantly.

Additional benefit in my estimation is a more robust and earthy flavor from unmalted feed grains.

Then use a mop wringer. I always get 7% final abv, but you lose a ton to the grain even with pressing. At least 10%. Which is why doing the tried and true gumballhead with backset after, maximizes efficiency.

Those are my thoughts on the matter. You go bigger like I'm doing, I start with filling 55 gallon drum and barrel band that heats up to 195°F, so that I can be much more efficient when I'm charging the boiler 2(22 gallon charges). But then again I have spent about $7,000 on my setup and I don't have an issue with spending money like a lot of guys here. I want the most efficient process to make the most amount of booze I can because 5 gallon and 10 gallon stills are about the biggest waste of time I think, cuz you don't get much and the relative effort is about the same.

Heck even at that setup it still takes me a full day on the rig to produce 3 gallons of drinking stock at 100 proof
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by 25Contender »

That is a big rig! I’m running a 15 gallon keg still. Im definitely doing the gumball head if this run works. Currently have my 3rd gen of buccaneer bobs in my 35 gallon barrel. Next AG I try it will definitely be in the big barrel. Just less painful to screw up a 5 gallon bucket of mash!
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Stonecutter »

Have you tried an AG without Corn? You could use Malted grains only. If you really want Corn you could do flaked Corn. Using flaked Corn and/or only Malted grain’s you don’t have to worry about cooking. You can bring your water up to strike temp add your grains and let sit at around 152F. Give it a stir a time or two and after 60-90 minutes do your iodine test. Once you have conversion bring your mash down to pitching temp. Use fresh ale yeast, give it 24hrs and you should see some activity in your airlock.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

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25Contender wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 1:07 pm That is a big rig! I’m running a 15 gallon keg still. Im definitely doing the gumball head if this run works. Currently have my 3rd gen of buccaneer bobs in my 35 gallon barrel. Next AG I try it will definitely be in the big barrel. Just less painful to screw up a 5 gallon bucket of mash!
I do the easy large batch method of booners.

Cracked feed corn can be had for under $10 for 50 # sack. Flaked corn is significantly more expensive. Might as well make whiskey with malt at the point.

Feed grains are more than sufficient to make incredible bourbon and whiskey, they just require more effort. I'm currently designing a 15 gallon 2 ton long throw press to squeeze grains ~500 USD for whole setup see with heavy duty aluminum pot. Screw press are way too expensive, ~20k
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by SmokyMtn »

They're more knowledgeable members to help with mashing suggestions. However I will weigh in on the scolding. You can select any member to be a Foe. This will hide any reply they make. It has helped my blood pressure
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Oatmeal »

RockinRockies wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:38 pm
Additional benefit in my estimation is a more robust and earthy flavor from unmalted feed grains.
So all unmalted grains using liquid enzymes? Food for thought....do you have a "recipe" you prefer for your grain mixture?
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by RockinRockies »

Oatmeal wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:55 pm
RockinRockies wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:38 pm
Additional benefit in my estimation is a more robust and earthy flavor from unmalted feed grains.
So all unmalted grains using liquid enzymes? Food for thought....do you have a "recipe" you prefer for your grain mixture?
Yes, with high temp alpha and gluco
I prefer them because I'm cheap, not because they are easy to work with. They are a bit more of a struggle than malted, but with a high enough corn bill, just fine.

For regular everyday drinking I prefer 80% corn 20% unmalted rye, with 2 lb per gallon of corn and .25 pounds per gallon rye. Do your hydrometer reading afterwards and if you get really great conversion just make sure you dilute it down to 8%. You'll likely not get above that, if so, not by much.

If I'm going to make a bourbon, I prefer
60% corn.
20% unmalted steamrolled barley
20% unmalted rye

My prices are as follows so you have an idea, comparatively:

Denver Metro I have multiple feed stores I can go to that are about a 30-minute drive.
Steamrolled barley went up but still $18.99/ 50#
No tax at Murdoch's.
$.37/lb
Unmalted rye $35/50# at another feed supply store I'm not going to mention cuz I don't want to call attention.
$.70/lb
The cheapest I found for malted rye is $65 for 50 lb in town and I'm not going to pay that. I also don't pay Murdoch prices for corn which is now over $13/50lb
I can go to Flagler to a co-op and get a ton of corn for $285 so you can do the math there. It's cheap. It's a 90 minute drive and my buddy split the cost and ton.

Corn: $.145/lb

I run a lot and I will be trying to fill up a 30 gallon barrel so I buy in bulk because I use it. I want to make as close to an authentic bourbon as possible which is why I just picked up a bottle of Buffalo Trace match number one white dog so I can see what they're doing for their cuts.

55 gallon wash:
67.5 lb Corn ($10)
22.5 lb each barley (~$8.50) and rye (~16)
Bakers and DADY yeast

That should net after wringing, typically, 40 gallons at 8 %
That's ~$35 before yeast, which is less than $5 but we'll call it $40.
That will net, empirically 3.2 gallons pure ethanol. I figure half that after running my rig to have a total of 1.6 gallons, or ~2.6 gallons at barrel strength of %60.

After aging, that's 3.6 gallons at 90 proof. This is the reason I think the boiler size restrictions are questionable, because of the sheer labor and time it takes to ever fill even a 30 gallon barrel. I'm looking at basically 26 runs. That's about 3 months of my time.

But think about the base price: $35/ 3.5 gallons of real bourbon. That's insane. Then factor energy and water costs and it's maybe 2-3x that, but still cheap... And I made it.

For white dog sipping, the corn/rye combo is cheaper, but not substantially. 3.5 gallons at 90 proof takes me maybe 2 months to drink. So that's my general process, give or take some math errors based on cuts
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by RockinRockies »

Additionally, Oatmeal, I think most contributors here would consider me both slightly nutty and over ambitious.. but after 5 years of oak sticks...I'm done with that one to two dimensional nonsense. I want real spirits that are authentic to the craft, and I'm going to use my off-season to create them.

So I've got a 15 and 30 gallon barrel and I intend on filling them by April.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

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25Contender wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:29 pm Pick a good recipe and literally follow it to the letter. That way people might be able to identify where it went wrong. Don’t try to get cute with it and make changes. Not yet. If you follow the recipe it will likely work. All the “reading” that others will have you doing will have you throwing in oyster shells, lemons, raisins, a rabbits foot and adjusting the flux capacitor, just chasing problems that you don’t really have. Keep it simple and stay with the recipe. Good luck and I will hopefully have a report in a week or so.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Setsumi »

There is just nothing as easy as Booners casual corn. The only hassle is to squeeze. I have a corn press so no hassle. A bit of speciality grains make for interesting flavours though i prefer just corn cause i know what to expect taste wise. Sometimes i will add late runnings from a beer if it does not contain high % of roasted grains.

My experience with unmalted barley and high temp enzymes is not pleasant, corn meal is much easier.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by still_stirrin »

RockinRockies wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:19 pm… So I've got a 15 and 30 gallon barrel and I intend on filling them by April.
Goodness RitR, you must be a youngster. That is a lot of whiskey to consume, or you have a bunch of close friends who also like to consume your products. 45 gallons is a stack of cases of bottles! I don’t think my liver would allow me to consume that much liquor over the rest of my life! But, YMMV.

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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Ben »

OP read through this, there is a bunch of process, results and tech in it: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 11&t=84742

If you are doing that much rye use a half hour rest at the beginning of the mash, between 120 and 130. That will be a combination beta glucan and proteolysis rest. Use just the rye, and just enough water to hit the temp. Then add the rest of the malt and enough hot water to bring it up for amalyse conversion (142-148). You can also add all your water at the beginning, then pull a decoction to run up to temp, just depends on your equipment. You can find a decoction calculator on the intrawebs. You will need to run the corn separately at gel temp or use malted or flaked corn. If you are going to sparge add a half ounce of rice hulls per lb of rye or corn.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by still_stirrin »

Ben wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:32 am OP read through this, there is a bunch of process, results and tech in it: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 11&t=84742

If you are doing that much rye use a half hour rest at the beginning of the mash, between 120 and 130. That will be a combination beta glucan and proteolysis rest. Use just the rye, and just enough water to hit the temp. Then add the rest of the malt and enough hot water to bring it up for amalyse conversion (142-148). You can also add all your water at the beginning, then pull a decoction to run up to temp, just depends on your equipment. You can find a decoction calculator on the intrawebs. You will need to run the corn separately at gel temp or use malted or flaked corn. If you are going to sparge add a half ounce of rice hulls per lb of rye or corn.
Just a quick addition to Ben’s note for RockinRockies:

The glucan rest is at a slightly lower temperature, 110*F to 120*F. And at the lowered temperature, the enzymes will require a little longer rest, 30 to 45 minutes. Glucans really add “mouthfeel” to a beer and spirit, so it can be nice in the end. But beta glucans are a pain in the brewery, especially if you lauter your mashes (which I do). Note that rye malt will benefit more from the glucan rest than unmalted rye, but you’ll get much better extraction from malted grains (in general).

If you’re using wheat, especially unmalted wheat, then a protein rest at 120*F to 130*F will help break down the proteins and reduce the foaming in the kettle & boiler. A compromise “single step” would be at 115*F to 125*F for a 30 to 45 minute hold. It will help the mash considerably.

And I agree, decoction mashing is great for flavor to both the beer and the spirit. So, if your processes allows it, then consider using a decoction step or two.

Gosh, isn’t brewing fun? It’s just as much a part of the “art-form” as the product.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Corn Cracker »

I would add a bit on cooling your ag mash,
I've done 3 all grains, first 2 (corn then corn with added grains) i let them cool on their own, wrapped in blankets and got the puke smell in em, i currently have an all corn mash i cooled to pitching temp by putting the pot in a sink of cold water and stirring and changing the water when it got hot...... no puke smell. My first all corn i tried to mash 20g in a big pot, it was a HORRIBLE fail, i tried to wait out the puke smell but after 2 weeks and no "pineapple" smell transitions, i had to dump it and went back to 5 gallon mashes, buckets and carboys. I'll go big again on the mash after i get a little more experience.

Awesome thread btw
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Ben »

You absolutely can no chill, I do it any time I have cleaned the fermenters. But you MUST raise the liquid up to pasteurization temp for 10-30 minutes depending on your altitude. Boil is better if you are using it to aid in sterilizing your equipment. Dump it in, let it cool overnight, pitch yeast in the morning. I would really advise against boiling/pasteurizing if you have any barley in your mash, the hulls will throw astringency that will carry over.

What you experienced Corn Cracker is a portion of the corn self fermentation process before lactic acid kicks in, if that happens again let it sit a few days (2-3) it should turn into a nice soft custardy smell, then dump in your yeast. They will work side by side with the lacto, if you pitch to early the yeast will usually overwhelm the ferment before the lacto has a chance. It does smell pretty vial before the lacto takes over. @pintoshine has a nice thread about it here: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3584
Last edited by Ben on Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Ben »

still_stirrin wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:52 am

The glucan rest is at a slightly lower temperature, 110*F to 120*F.
Gosh dang it, my brain library failed on that one. Good catch.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by RockinRockies »

still_stirrin wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:31 am
RockinRockies wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:19 pm… So I've got a 15 and 30 gallon barrel and I intend on filling them by April.
Goodness RitR, you must be a youngster. That is a lot of whiskey to consume, or you have a bunch of close friends who also like to consume your products. 45 gallons is a stack of cases of bottles! I don’t think my liver would allow me to consume that much liquor over the rest of my life! But, YMMV.

Be safe, responsible, and discrete.
ss
I'm 38. I drink way too much, but, I want authenticity, so I'm planning to set stuff aside and age for many years. I'll Only do a few runs to make my white drinking stock... Maybe 5 gallons for the year.

A good friend is Russian and he drinks my stuff at 89%.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

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RockinRockies wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:35 pm A good friend is Russian and he drinks my stuff at 89%
Suggest you stop letting him do that unless you want to be responsible for some long term damage.
I'm sure some others will come along to tell you why its not a great idea to drink spirits at those kinds of ABVs.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Setsumi »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:09 am
RockinRockies wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:35 pm A good friend is Russian and he drinks my stuff at 89%
Suggest you stop letting him do that unless you want to be responsible for some long term damage.
I'm sure some others will come along to tell you why its not a great idea to drink spirits at those kinds of ABVs.
+ SBB. Had the same discussion this morning on a local msg group... I got the impression that I was hearding cats.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Oatmeal »

RockinRockies wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:58 pm
For regular everyday drinking I prefer 80% corn 20% unmalted rye, with 2 lb per gallon of corn and .25 pounds per gallon rye.
Thanks for the detailed write up! The corn and rye will likely be my first attempt at using rye....
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:09 am
RockinRockies wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:35 pm A good friend is Russian and he drinks my stuff at 89%
Suggest you stop letting him do that unless you want to be responsible for some long term damage.
I'm sure some others will come along to tell you why its not a great idea to drink spirits at those kinds of ABVs.
He has the equivalent of the purple heart for the Soviet army when he served in the afgan conflict back in the late 70''s. He's a big, old school hard nosed Russian dude and I don't think there's anything I could tell him otherwise to stop him from drinking at that percentage.

What's tough is every single time he wants to hang out he always brings at least a 12 pack or a bottle of booze to give to me and I don't understand that culture but it makes it easier for me to give him as much as much of my homemade as I do
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by NormandieStill »

I was once invited to a dinner party with a Russian. He wasn't drinking very high proof (or at least, no higher than he was buying commercially in Russia) but the quantity was terrifying. The meal started with a toast and two shots. That had me almost down (I wasn't a heavy drinker and 2 shots on an empty stomach is a bad start to a party). During the meal he just kept drinking and at the end, when everyone had finished, he got out another bottle and proceeded to drink it almost entirely, and all by himself. When we commented on it, he assured us that the trick was to eat with each shot (He had a jar of large pickled gherkins and would eat 1/3rd for every glass. By the end of the evening he had drunk at least 700ml of vodka since the end of the meal (and god knows how much during). And he could still stand and happily converse in his second language. I don't know if it's the climate, the drinking from an early age, or some freak of genetics, but them Russians sure can drink (vodka).
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

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NormandieStill wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:43 am I was once invited to a dinner party with a Russian. He wasn't drinking very high proof (or at least, no higher than he was buying commercially in Russia) but the quantity was terrifying. The meal started with a toast and two shots. That had me almost down (I wasn't a heavy drinker and 2 shots on an empty stomach is a bad start to a party). During the meal he just kept drinking and at the end, when everyone had finished, he got out another bottle and proceeded to drink it almost entirely, and all by himself. When we commented on it, he assured us that the trick was to eat with each shot (He had a jar of large pickled gherkins and would eat 1/3rd for every glass. By the end of the evening he had drunk at least 700ml of vodka since the end of the meal (and god knows how much during). And he could still stand and happily converse in his second language. I don't know if it's the climate, the drinking from an early age, or some freak of genetics, but them Russians sure can drink (vodka).
That is almost exactly how my buddy operates. Problem is, I weigh 145 lb. He's almost 275 I reckon. Sometimes I'm excited during the holidays or whatnot and I forget not to keep up with him, because he literally pours a drink as soon as you finish another drink, and there's always a beer and a liquor drink at the same time.

I think I had eight or nine before I went to his house one day and I was feeling pretty good, and I think I had 17 at his house, my neighbor said he counted, when he came with me. I don't even remember leaving his house but I do remember going home and forcing myself to throw up because I was so incredibly upset with myself for not paying attention and getting that drunk. It's was a good decision because I didn't have that bad of a hangover.

But yes and my wife says "no more keeping up with the Russian."
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by Ben »

Functioning alcoholism isn't some sort of genetic trait, its a matter of being a... functioning alcoholic.

The way to keep him from drinking your stuff at 89 is not to keep it at 89, there is no reason for it anyway. Cut it to whatever your aging or bottling strength is immediately and it is no longer an issue.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

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alcohol is a carcinogen at any proof
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by 25Contender »

Thanks guys. Been a lot of good stuff on this one. More work ahead. I guess it’s never ending. Will y’all share your spirit run procedures? What are you diluting your spirit run with? How long do you give between stripping run and spirit run? Any benefit to let the distillate from the strip air a bit before jamming it back in the still? Was kind of thinking I might be able to strip a few buckets and then dilute the spirit run with the back set from the last batch.
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by still_stirrin »

25Contender wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:21 pm… Will y’all share your spirit run procedures? What are you diluting your spirit run with? How long do you give between stripping run and spirit run? Any benefit to let the distillate from the strip air a bit before jamming it back in the still?
I don’t. I brew, ferment, and strip 3 times while collecting the low wines for the spirit run. After the brew and ferment cycle 3 times, then I’ll recharge the boiler with the low wines for the spirit run. This process can take anywhere from 2 to 4 months to complete (before cuts and loading the cask). Time is relative and at my age, it passes quite quickly.

And if things work out proper, the low wines will be at 35%ABV +/- and ready to run without any additional diluting (I make bourbons primarily).
25Contender wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:21 pm… Was kind of thinking I might be able to strip a few buckets and then dilute the spirit run with the back set from the last batch.
Using backset will do 2 things for you: 1) dilute your ABV to a safe range for the boiler, and 2) adds some acid content to lower the pH which will help with esterification and boost the flavors in your product. But, a little goes a long way. Don’t use too much.

Practice, practice, practice. And take notes so you can “learn from yourself”. Soon, you’ll have your own distillery notes to follow and you won't need to ask “rookie questions” here because you’ll be a “master distiller” too. :D
ss
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25Contender
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Re: AG advice for newbie from a newbie

Post by 25Contender »

Thanks SS.
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