Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

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jonnys_spirit
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I have found that using a mirror, back of a spoon, or eg; my glasses to detect a hot vapor leak works reliably - The leaking hot vapor hits the cool glass / metal and condenses in drops/fog on the cooler material... I have detected vapor leaks by seeing small amounts of condensate around the leak area and confirmed with the "mirror-method".. Even on a hot still.

When i'm running my still I will regularly inspect all the tri-clamp fittings and any other locations where there's a gasket (boiler lid for example) for any condensate and further use my glasses or a mirror to identify any leak. My smaller alembic uses flour dough for the gaskets which works very well but I'd suggest that I have found more leaks (not many really but I have discovered some) that I can then repair and confirm.

If the distillate coming out of the PC is hot enough it will fog up a mirror just because it's hot and I can increase cooling water flow to cool it a bit more and the fogging of the mirror stops - That's not necessarily a leak but I can track it.

Stay safe and good luck!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Thanks JS,

Sounds like we do the same thing!

Well, my SPP arrived from Russia today, the shipping speed really surprised me. Only took two weeks to get to my door!

I ordered the 5mmx5mm and man… this stuff is tiny. The thin gauge wire has me wondering if 5 liters of this stuff will crush it under its own weight.

Now yet another question. I’ve been searching around on the forum and I’m having a hard time finding a good cleaning process for brand new SPP. I found a website outside of HD where a guy simply boiled it in a 50/50 water/vinegar mixture, then rinsed thoroughly. He did not mention a sacrificial alcohol run after.

What do you guys do with new SPP? Should I clean it in the way mentioned above? Is a sac run necessary before use?

Thanks again for all the feedback!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I'd definitely recommend a regular cleaning protocol with vinegar then alcohol sac run. Your vapors and reflux are gonna be very intimate with every bit of surface area on the SPP when you're running keepers... I'd even suggest to not use reflux on the sac run so you're not draining any manufacturing oils and such back to the boiler and then re-vaporizing them to be deposited in the boiler and re-vaporized through the SPP. Keep it a one-way path in pot still mode with all of the hot ethanol vapor going up and out towards the PC such that only clean ETOH from the boiler is cleaning the bits and pieces throughout the run.. Just my thoughts :)

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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Great advice JS, I’ve got a plan now!

Pretty excited to run this rig. Before I get too crazy doing an all grain as my first run, I might try some Shady’s sugar shine. I can make some good apple pie with it.

I’m really excited about all grain neutral. I’ve had some fantastic stuff from a local home distiller made with barely and oats. Very full bodied for a vodka. He made an unreal tasty gin with it too.

This was my first taste of something that was so much better than commercial, what’s the point of needing a liquor store.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Fletching »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:32 pm I'd even suggest to not use reflux on the sac run so you're not draining any manufacturing oils and such back to the boiler and then re-vaporizing them to be deposited in the boiler and re-vaporized through the SPP.
This is exactly what I did when I got mine in. I soaked them in some heads from a previous run first (probably not needed, but mine were pretty oily out of the package)

I then did a vinegar/water run followed by a sac run. Didn’t run reflux either time for the very reason you mentioned. Worked really well.

-Fletching
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Bee »

I would not run vinegar in the house unless you want every steel object including screws & nails to rust.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

I was gonna run it on the back patio
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Update:

SPP is definitely all it’s cracked up to be! I was astounded it worked so well.

I did my first refluxed alcohol run with 2 gallons of old feints since that’s all I had laying around. I arbitrarily added some water to them to make sure I had a decent amount of liquid above the heating element. This run was not for consumption since I was doing one final precautionary cleaning run for the SPP and my new copper RC. The stuff was pretty damn clean from all my prior treatments. I probably would have been fine to drink the stuff, but I’ll wait til next time.

I initially heated up with 5500 watts. I Reduced to 2700 watts once the bottom of the column felt warm and let it stabilize for a bit after the vapor climbed the column

I then Slowly cracked the valve, sneaking up on it. It took almost 1/8 turn with my 2” ball valve before any product appeared. At this point, it was like 3 drips per second. I couldn’t believe how compressed I was able to get the foreshots and heads for running feints. It was basically one quart.

After doing tons of reading on here about SPP, i elected to push the power and reflux to the limit, couldn’t believe the results.

The sweet spot for creating the fluidized environment where I sustained a controlled flood of liquid was 4950-5000 watts. I was pulling pure azeo doing this. The product seemed to be the highest ABV when there was about a half inch of stable, bubbling liquid above the SPP. Finding the sweet spot was a bit of a dance. I kept testing the ABV the whole run while I played with my power inputs. I still find it crazy I was running so much power.

When playing with the valve, if I cracked it open enough to collect 3 quarts per hour, it looked like the ABV dropped a bit. Down to 95.5%. I also had to increase the power a bit to maintain the same level of flood. With a larger, cleaner batch of low wines, I feel confident I could get pure neutral at this take off rate. Unreal.

In the middle of the run, I couldn’t help myself. I diluted and tasted a small bit of the distillate and spit it out. It was very clean and had almost no smell what so ever. I can’t believe I was getting this quality with how nasty the feints were.

I’m so pumped that all my research on here has paid off.. my new rig runs perfect. Everything feels completely dialed, and it’s so easy to control with VM. Now I gotta get a ferment going to see what I can really do with this thing!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Fletching »

That is awesome! Glad to hear you are having good success with it! Cool that you can push so much power and still achieve 95%+

Did you end up using all 5 liters of SPP in the column? If so, did it get you to around 43” as calculated? Curious, as I may switch to a 3” column soon.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Fletching wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:31 am That is awesome! Glad to hear you are having good success with it! Cool that you can push so much power and still achieve 95%+

Did you end up using all 5 liters of SPP in the column? If so, did it get you to around 43” as calculated? Curious, as I may switch to a 3” column soon.

Thanks man! Yes I ended up using all 5 liters and was very close to my predicted height.

One thing to note about the 3" after watching videos of people running SPP in smaller diameter columns; I found the aquatic environment that floods the top was much more tame and doesn't shake and bounce the SPP. This is likely due to the velocity of the vapor being lower with the larger diameter. I read tons of stuff about needing to put a scrubby on top of the packing or else it can actually bounce into your VM takeoff port. I experienced nothing like that, even when I pushed well over 5000 watts.

I'm definitely glad I elected to go 3", this thing feels completely dialed and the column isn't even that tall. I'm pumping out azeo at the same take of rate as my flute. Wild.
Last edited by BrewinBrian44 on Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by ecir54 »

Good to hear the 5x5 SPP works well in a 3" column. I use it in a 2", SPP is amazing.

Report back once you get a couple more runs under your belt.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Will do. One thing I’m bummed about was not having my thermometer in place to have that extra data point. My little harbor freight titanium drill bits barely made a scratch in the 316 stainless. Not sure what will even cut through this shit.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by still_stirrin »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:04 pm…My little harbor freight titanium drill bits barely made a scratch in the 316 stainless. Not sure what will even cut through this shit.
Slow the drill speed and use lots of cutting oil. You gotta’ keep the heat away from your bit in order to make chips. Don’t press the drill in hard, just let it slowly dig in.

I use a small diameter plot bit and the use a step bit to enlarge the hole. But, you’ve got to go slow. A carbide tipped bit also cuts stainless good
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by bluefish_dist »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:04 pm Will do. One thing I’m bummed about was not having my thermometer in place to have that extra data point. My little harbor freight titanium drill bits barely made a scratch in the 316 stainless. Not sure what will even cut through this shit.
Stainless work hardens, so if you are not cutting it, you are just making it harder. Cobalt or carbide bit, slow speed and cutting oil. The bit has to cut to work, get it making a chip and keep the chip going.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Thanks guys, I’ll give it another shot with a better bit.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by NormandieStill »

This is drifting off-topic, but I've read that with stainless you're better using water for cooling than oil. The higher boiling point of the oil means that you've past the "good" range of temperatures before you have any visible signs.

I had a lot of luck with a carbide hole saw until it jumped slightly and the resulting chatter knocked the carbide teeth off!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Next Saturday is going to be my first spirit run with some Shady’s sugar shine low wines diluted to 20%ABV with my SPP. I collected them to a combined ABV of 38%. The stuff is very clean and the ferment went off without a hitch.

I feel reasonably confident, but there’s a couple things I’d like to nail down.

One data point I’m still fuzzy on. What should I be looking for in my cooling water exit temp from the reflux condenser coil? Is it critical to control this precisely? I have the ability to dial it in with my needle valve. On my CM plates setup, it’s usually pretty warm and slow to get my proper takeoff and ABV.

Another thing, power input when stabilizing the column and bleeding off fores/heads. I did a test run a couple weeks ago with some skanky feints and mainly tried to create the magic semi aquatic environment which required 4900-5000 watts and pulled very clean product at 96% ABV at a reasonably fast takeoff rate. I think I’ve got this part down for hearts, but I’m not sure what I should be shooting for with the initial heads compression power level. I’ve read it should be much more gentle, but most of the threads I’ve found about this have different packing material and smaller column diameter than the 3” I’m using. From what I read, it sounds like running the higher power aquatic environment at the start will drag heads into my hearts, lowering my keeper yield. Any tips on this would be very helpful!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Salt Must Flow »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 4:10 pm Next Saturday is going to be my first spirit run with some Shady’s sugar shine low wines diluted to 20%ABV with my SPP. I collected them to a combined ABV of 38%. The stuff is very clean and the ferment went off without a hitch.

I feel reasonably confident, but there’s a couple things I’d like to nail down.

One data point I’m still fuzzy on. What should I be looking for in my cooling water exit temp from the reflux condenser coil? Is it critical to control this precisely? I have the ability to dial it in with my needle valve. On my CM plates setup, it’s usually pretty warm and slow to get my proper takeoff and ABV.

Another thing, power input when stabilizing the column and bleeding off fores/heads. I did a test run a couple weeks ago with some skanky feints and mainly tried to create the magic semi aquatic environment which required 4900-5000 watts and pulled very clean product at 96% ABV at a reasonably fast takeoff rate. I think I’ve got this part down for hearts, but I’m not sure what I should be shooting for with the initial heads compression power level. I’ve read it should be much more gentle, but most of the threads I’ve found about this have different packing material and smaller column diameter than the 3” I’m using. From what I read, it sounds like running the higher power aquatic environment at the start will drag heads into my hearts, lowering my keeper yield. Any tips on this would be very helpful!
Your reflux condenser does not need precise temp control. You just need to be able to knock down the upward traveling vapor back down. Fluctuating water pressure for instance will only cause your exiting water temp to fluctuate, but does not need precise control at all. I personally put a digital thermometer with dual temp probes to monitor the exiting water temp temp of my reflux condenser as well as my product condenser and I set a max alarm so I can catch it if anything gets out of hand. I use tiny brass needle valves and 1/4" polypropylene hose so it can handle high temp. Most will say it's totally overkill, but I really like it.

I contacted that Russian company, told them I have a 3" VM still and they recommended against that 5x5 SPP. They told me I could use it, but would require that I run at significantly higher power. I suspect the reason is that they use too small diameter wire with their larger SPP. They recommended I use their smaller SPP.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Right on. My concern about RC coolant temp was geared towards preventing over cooling of the falling reflux. I’ll keep digging on this. My gut is telling me the coolant should feel warm to the touch.

After lots of searching, I think I finally found some insight on initial power to equalize the column. My confusion on the matter was due to two conflicting trains of thought from experienced distillers on here. In the “how to operate VM” thread from Kiwistiller, he recommends a very low power equalization, but Odin recommends the opposite. More power= more reflux= more distillations. This conflict of opinion is highlighted well in this thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=63891

I’m leaning towards Odins point of view as it pertains more to the effectiveness of SPP in particular. To get the lowest possible HETP with SPP, the semi aquatic state is required. Running low power at the beginning will raise my HETP and offer less compressed fores/heads as I won’t create this environment.

In my test run with feints, my boiler charge was around 20% ABV and I plan to dilute my low wines the same amount for my spirit run this weekend. I took careful notes on the sweet spot for power to achieve the semi aquatic environment, so theoretically I should be able to replicate everything with the same power as before “4900 watts.” I think I’ll just turn my power down to this level once I feel the column getting too hot to touch at the base and wait a bit for the separation to happen.

I hope my logic is sound. I’ve spent so much time on the damn HD power search that I’m starting to go crosseyed. My wife loves it when I’m thumbing on my phone while we’re watching a movie. Ha!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

This is what I’m seeing in the semi aquatic state. This level of bouncing liquid stays exactly the same throughout the run at 4900 watts.
645E7C71-C20D-4844-9F91-A5AB76F65946.jpeg
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Saltbush Bill »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:36 pm My concern about RC coolant temp was geared towards preventing over cooling of the falling reflux.
Reflux condensers for packed reflux columns need to run pretty warm, as hot as you can and still knock all of the vapors down.
Excess cooling of the refluxed spirit is not helpful and only makes the still work harder to preform its job.
Water exiting my 3 inch Boka is hot enough that you wouldn't be comfortable sitting in a tub of it for long.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by shadylane »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:36 pm
After lots of searching, I think I finally found some insight on initial power to equalize the column. My confusion on the matter was due to two conflicting trains of thought from experienced distillers on here. In the “how to operate VM” thread from Kiwistiller, he recommends a very low power equalization, but Odin recommends the opposite. More power= more reflux= more distillations. This conflict of opinion is highlighted well in this thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=63891
I think Odin and Kiwi are both right.
Either way will get the column equalized and give the boiling action time to mix in and heat the cooler liquid at the bottom of the boiler. Odins way is just faster.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Thanks for the input gents.

Last step before the run will be drilling a hole for the thermo port. I’ll use the thermometer as a guide for tails coming in. Looking for that 0.1 degF change in temp and adjust the valve accordingly. I’m hoping to pull close to 96% at 4 liters per hour. I think I’ll get there with this SPP!

Really excited to see how the Shady’s shine comes out the pipe. If the low wines are any indication, it should be super clean. Gonna turn it into a batch of Odin’s easy gin with my small T500 boiler with the pot still top.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Salt Must Flow »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:36 pm Right on. My concern about RC coolant temp was geared towards preventing over cooling of the falling reflux. I’ll keep digging on this. My gut is telling me the coolant should feel warm to the touch.

After lots of searching, I think I finally found some insight on initial power to equalize the column. My confusion on the matter was due to two conflicting trains of thought from experienced distillers on here. In the “how to operate VM” thread from Kiwistiller, he recommends a very low power equalization, but Odin recommends the opposite. More power= more reflux= more distillations. This conflict of opinion is highlighted well in this thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=63891

I’m leaning towards Odins point of view as it pertains more to the effectiveness of SPP in particular. To get the lowest possible HETP with SPP, the semi aquatic state is required. Running low power at the beginning will raise my HETP and offer less compressed fores/heads as I won’t create this environment.

In my test run with feints, my boiler charge was around 20% ABV and I plan to dilute my low wines the same amount for my spirit run this weekend. I took careful notes on the sweet spot for power to achieve the semi aquatic environment, so theoretically I should be able to replicate everything with the same power as before “4900 watts.” I think I’ll just turn my power down to this level once I feel the column getting too hot to touch at the base and wait a bit for the separation to happen.

I hope my logic is sound. I’ve spent so much time on the damn HD power search that I’m starting to go crosseyed. My wife loves it when I’m thumbing on my phone while we’re watching a movie. Ha!
As said previously, the water exiting your RC should be quite warm. It can easily be 130F-140F. If I recall correctly, vapor escapes my RC somewhere above 160F or so. Many, if not most, do not use thermometers or thermowells to monitor the temp coming out of their condensers. I do because I want to make sure I am not needlessly using too much or not enough water. The thermometer gives me a visual/numerical figure that can be repeatable and even set a max temp alarm which has been very helpful for me. I like tinkering and making things too.

I primarily make the cleanest neutral I can so my main concern is removing the foreshots and heads. Tails is a no brainier. I equalize at lower power than when taking off hearts. Learn your still, take many notes and you can always pour it back down your column, equalize and continue. Proper standard procedures can be somewhat confusing. For instance, there are Vapor Speed Calculators that determine vapor speed based on power input and dia of column. People have said to operate within 12" - 20" per minute range as to not disrupt and/or cause smearing throughout the column. At least that's how I understood it. It seems for every 'standard operating procedure' I find, there seems to be contradicting beliefs. I've always read that you can heat your boiler at 100% power then turn the power down once the vapor starts to travel up the column. Others say heating the boiler is the ONLY thing they do slow. They elaborate by saying that heating slow allows the most volatile vapors to escape the boiler better in comparison to heating up fast. Don't know. I've read that long equalizing times is ideal then read that 10 min is fine. Don't know, but it makes me wonder if fast heatup and long equalizing does the same thing as slow heatup and faster equalizing. Don't know. Lots to do for yourself, see what works, what works best for you and take lots of notes.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Salt Must Flow »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:04 am Thanks for the input gents.

Last step before the run will be drilling a hole for the thermo port. I’ll use the thermometer as a guide for tails coming in. Looking for that 0.1 degF change in temp and adjust the valve accordingly. I’m hoping to pull close to 96% at 4 liters per hour. I think I’ll get there with this SPP!

Really excited to see how the Shady’s shine comes out the pipe. If the low wines are any indication, it should be super clean. Gonna turn it into a batch of Odin’s easy gin with my small T500 boiler with the pot still top.
You want to monitor your vapor takeoff temp. That will tell you how stable your still is running. I just wanted to point that out in case you intended to install it elsewhere. You don't want the thermowell in contact with the falling reflux. You want it installed where the vapor just leaves the column. With my VM still I installed mine between the column and the gate valve.

Once I see the vapor temp start to rise 0.1F-0.2F or so and stay, I start to use smaller collection jars. Temp will start to rise and then I'm right into stinky tails. I just shut down at that point.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Yeah the plan is to put it right on the T that comes off the column, before the valve. Outside the "splash zone" ha.

I read that Dad300 squeezes a bit more hearts out by closing the valve when the temp ticks up for a bit of full reflux, then opens again, slightly less, then repeats the cycle until he's run out of patience. Sounds like him and Odin both advocate to keep the power fixed as to not de-stabilize the column.

I don't think there's any "right" answer. As you eluded to, there are so many contradictions on HD from boss level distillers, I'll just have to find my own way and experiment with different techniques. I created this thread to make quality stuff on my first go. This may be a bit naïve on my part, but man, this thing will be way easier to run than my CM setup. I first focused on a high quality ferment, so I won't have shit going in, expecting gold to come out. Thanks again for creating the recipe Shady!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by bluefish_dist »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:52 am
I read that Dad300 squeezes a bit more hearts out by closing the valve when the temp ticks up for a bit of full reflux, then opens again, slightly less, then repeats the cycle until he's run out of patience. Sounds like him and Odin both advocate to keep the power fixed as to not de-stabilize the column.

I don't think there's any "right" answer. As you eluded to, there are so many contradictions on HD from boss level distillers, I'll just have to find my own way and experiment with different techniques. I created this thread to make quality stuff on my first go. This may be a bit naïve on my part, but man, this thing will be way easier to run than my CM setup. I first focused on a high quality ferment, so I won't have shit going in, expecting gold to come out. Thanks again for creating the recipe Shady!
I would turn power down at the first sight of tails. Running 12kw I would go down 500w at a time until down 4kw, then quit. Once I could no longer hold temperature and had reached max reflux, then turn down power.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by shadylane »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:52 am Thanks again for creating the recipe Shady!
Give PUGIDOGS the credit. RIP
It's his idea to boil yeast for nutrients. :thumbup:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5994

All I did was come up with a sugar wash recipe using other folks ideas.
That was based on common sense of what yeast needed and wanted to get the job done.
One of which was to use shell grit for a simple form of pH control.
The shell didn't require accurate measurements and had the least possibility for failure, no matter what some folks had for water.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Thanks for the tip bluefish. I'll give that a try!

Yeah Shady, the boiled yeast trick seems to be the ticket! Preventing Ph crash with shells is also a solid technique. I used powdered CC last time, but on my next round I'll give the shells a go. I like the idea of a modern recipe with collected proven techniques. The simplicity is what really drew me in.
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shadylane
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by shadylane »

When getting close to tails, change the collection jars often.
On a packed column running a sugar wash, hearts to tails happens real fast.
Ya don't want to pollute the last big jar of hearts with a spoonful of peppery, cardboard tails. :sick:
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