Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

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Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Hope this is the right place for this topic

After some great success with flavored spirits and running plates, I’ve become really interested in making high quality vodka to round out my abilities. I’d also love to start getting into gin as my wife loves the stuff! I’ve got plenty of bourbon aging in the home, and nothing to drink other than sugar heads. My goal is to make all grain neutral.

I have a plan, but need input before I pull the trigger on some expensive components.

My boiler: I have a keg boiler with a 5500 watt heating element and a 4”tc ferrule for the column attachment. It runs on my 220 dryer circuit. Laundry room is my distillery haha.

After reading a lot of scattered threads on here, I’m thinking about using a 3”x48” stainless spool tube, with a sight glass above, then a 3” tee to a ball valve for a VM setup, using my shotgun product condenser. For the coil just above the tee, I planned on purchasing one for a 3” column from Rainer distilling. Making super pure sprit is my goal, with a good takeoff rate.

Height is an issue for my area, which is why I was thinking about a larger diameter tube. For packing material, I’m really intrigued with stainless SPP, which is available on eBay in 2 liter quantities. “I have no idea how much I actually need.” The stuff is expensive, but I’m okay with a buy once cry once approach, as the stuff should last forever.

This is where I’m at… I’m not sure if this is the best approach though and could use some insight from the neutral pro’s on here.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Demy »

I think you are on the right track, I only use scrubber for packing and I am very happy, others prefer other methods ... for the quantity just calculate the volume of your column.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Deplorable »

Rule of thumb is 20×diameter. So if you want 3" diameter your talking 60" of packed height plus your take off tee and RC housing. So you're looking at ~6 feet of height above your boiler sitting on the floor.
2" limits your take off speed. I can get good vodka at 1l/hour with 42" of copper mesh packed column, and I need a step stool to raise my RC. My last reflux run was pretty close to16 hours to make what amounted to 3.2 us gallons of 94% after cuts.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by greggn »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:04 am
, then a 3” tee to a ball valve for a VM setup,

Before you purchase that ball valve check the specs on the material used for the ball seat. Teflon is ideal but expensive. You might want to consider using a gate valve.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Oatmeal »

Ccvm may cost less to build. Lava rock is a great value to performance ratio. My column is 3" x 42" and can achieve what the cheapo alcometer roughly reads as 95ish....
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Damn, yeah 6 ft would require a hole in the ceiling to the master bedroom, my wife would love that! Ha!

For the ball valve. I found a 2” one on amazon that’s stainless steel with PTFE seats. Price seems okay. Would I be better off goin with a larger diameter valve or gate valve for VM? Seems difficult to find a stainless gate valve for a good price at a size above 2”.

Also, I’m not necessarily sold on VM, I’ve also ready about CCVM and boka style LM. I’ve just read VM is easier to control, which was attractive to me.

I suppose I could go 4” too and just reduce to 3” for the reflux coil. The thought I had for the SPP is getting equivalent fractioning with less length needed, but I’ve also read about lava rock too. What I’ve read so far is basically it takes a lot of work to properly break down the rock to a size appropriate for distillation packing. I hate to sound lazy, but that’s where I got more excited about spp. From what I’ve been reading on here, it sounds like the column height can go down depending on packing material. I’ve read a lot about using copper mesh and stainless scrubbies, but it sounds like height will be my limiting factor
For high purity.

Cliff notes version of what I’m looking for. Less height for a decent collection rate at a high purity, how do I get there? I may need to accept it’s not possible, but I’m hopeful!

Thank you all for your feedback so far!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by still_stirrin »

Brian,

You don’t need a 3” valve. In fact, you probably don’t even need a 2” valve because you want to make a high purity neutral. So, you’ll keep the reflux ratio high anyway. I would think a 1” valve would be fine.

But you’ve said you’re looking for all stainless plumbing: column, Tee, valve, and even packing. Without copper in the system you won’t have much “sulfur protection”. Copper on the hot side will help significantly with the product’s flavor (or lack thereof, at least). Consider it.

Also, 20 diameters is a good “rule of thumb”, but not “cast in stone”. Remember, the secret to purity is the reflux ratio, so vapor production (input power), packing solution, and take off speed all affect the reflux ratio. So, you don’t NEED 20 diameters if you collect slowly while boiling hard with good performing packing. Make the right choice for it, even though it’s expensive, and you may get away with a shorter column.

I run 20 diameters of glass marbles in a 2” ID copper column with a combination copper LM/VM head and I can get to 190+ proof with 2kW of input power. Marbles are not the most effective packing, but they’re very economical and easy to maintain. So I traded packing cost and take off speed for column height as my solution. It works for me.

So, spend a little time developing your requirements thoroughly before choosing your solution. That way you won’t have to redo it again in the near future because it’s not right.
ss

p.s. - And ALWAYS do at least double distillations, ie - strip + spirit runs. It’ll help you a lot to get to the high purity you’re aiming for.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

still_stirrin wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:31 pm Brian,

You don’t need a 3” valve. In fact, you probably don’t even need a 2” valve because you want to make a high purity neutral. So, you’ll keep the reflux ratio high anyway. I would think a 1” valve would be fine.

But you’ve said you’re looking for all stainless plumbing: column, Tee, valve, and even packing. Without copper in the system you won’t have much “sulfur protection”. Copper on the hot side will help significantly with the product’s flavor (or lack thereof, at least). Consider it.

Also, 20 diameters is a good “rule of thumb”, but not “cast in stone”. Remember, the secret to purity is the reflux ratio, so vapor production (input power), packing solution, and take off speed all affect the reflux ratio. So, you don’t NEED 20 diameters if you collect slowly while boiling hard with good performing packing. Make the right choice for it, even though it’s expensive, and you may get away with a shorter column.

I run 20 diameters of glass marbles in a 2” ID copper column with a combination copper LM/VM head and I can get to 190+ proof with 2kW of input power. Marbles are not the most effective packing, but they’re very economical and easy to maintain. So I traded packing cost and take off speed for column height as my solution. It works for me.

So, spend a little time developing your requirements thoroughly before choosing your solution. That way you won’t have to redo it again in the near future because it’s not right.
ss

p.s. - And ALWAYS do at least double distillations, ie - strip + spirit runs. It’ll help you a lot to get to the high purity you’re aiming for.
Thanks for the feedback SS. Good to know for the size of the valve. I suppose it’ll also make adjustments a bit easier to control with the smaller opening.

For the packing material, if I went with stainless SPP, would the 2L advertised on eBay be enough? It’s pretty expensive stuff, which is why I’m curious on how much I’ll need. Do you think I’d be able to achieve a pure spirit with a 48” spool tube and SPP?

Also for the copper, I planned to use a portion of the packed section with copper mesh, do you think this will be enough to remove the sulfides? I also always throw some copper in the boiler when running as well. The reflux coil will be copper too.

I definitely plan to strip everything I intend to be a clean product. Do you stop your strips early for a vodka to keep tails out of the boiler?
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Fletching »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:17 pm
Thanks for the feedback SS. Good to know for the size of the valve. I suppose it’ll also make adjustments a bit easier to control with the smaller opening.

For the packing material, if I went with stainless SPP, would the 2L advertised on eBay be enough? It’s pretty expensive stuff, which is why I’m curious on how much I’ll need. Do you think I’d be able to achieve a pure spirit with a 48” spool tube and SPP?

Also for the copper, I planned to use a portion of the packed section with copper mesh, do you think this will be enough to remove the sulfides? I also always throw some copper in the boiler when running as well. The reflux coil will be copper too.

I definitely plan to strip everything I intend to be a clean product. Do you stop your strips early for a vodka to keep tails out of the boiler?
Not trying to answer for SS, but figured I would share my experience with SPP since it seems that you are interested in it.

I run a 2” CCVM, so my results may be different than a VM. I bought 3L of the 5X5 off of eBay with the anticipation that I might switch to a 3” column down the road. (Still haven’t).

I have ran at several different heights, but the one height that I found to be most comfortable with my set up while still putting out a 95%+ neutral has been 54” of packing total with 12” of that being copper mesh. I do 6” copper mesh on bottom, then 42” of SPP, then 6” of copper mesh on the top. So to answer your question, from what I have experienced, 48” of SPP would definitely be enough to achieve a 95%+ neutral. Also notable, I always run low wines through my reflux column, not wash, so depending on what you plan on doing, this could affect your results.

As far as your copper question, I do 4 stripping runs before sending those low wines into the boiler for my spirit (reflux) run. During each stripping run, I have 6” of rolled copper mesh in the vapor path, then in my spirit run, I have 12” of rolled copper mesh in the vapor path. I have never experienced off tastes created by sulfides that I could detect.

As for stripping runs, I typically run my stripping runs down to 20%

Hope this is helpful

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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Fletching »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:17 pm
For the packing material, if I went with stainless SPP, would the 2L advertised on eBay be enough? It’s pretty expensive stuff, which is why I’m curious on how much I’ll need. Do you think I’d be able to achieve a pure spirit with a 48” spool tube and SPP?
My apologies. When I first responded, I assumed you were building a 2” column and reading back now, I realize you are going for a 3”.

2L of SPP will only fill you a little over 17” in a 3” column. You will probably need more than that.

As far as efficiency vs height on a 3”, I am not well-versed, but there are some good threads on here referencing that. I have read on here that some were achieving 95%+ with as little as 30 inches of SPP in a 3” column, but do some looking to double check.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Thanks for the feedback Fletching, I too strip with copper mesh in the vapor path currently.

I just read through some other SPP threads from Odin and Dad3000, looks like 3"x"36 SPP packed height could hit azeo with a good take-off rate! Sounds like that's roughly 4 liters of SPP. I'm curious if a 1" VM ball valve would be undersized for what they describe as a fast take-off. I guess I could buy a 1" and upgrade later if needed. I can always use that valve for my brewing stuff too.

For the size of the SPP, there's a couple different options. Would 3.5mm be too small, or should I go with something closer to 5mm for a 3" column?
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Also, side note, is the copper coil necessary?

I already have a 2 inch stainless shotgun deflegmator I’ve used for my plated setup. I suppose I could just run a 3” to 2” reducer to that for my reflux condenser? It’s about 8 inches long.

It’ll do full reflux with my four plates with the SCR dial turned just above halfway on my 5500watt element. Will this not be enough knock down the power to run SPP? I also have a 2x20 inch shotgun product condenser I could swap with it, I’d just need to know the 8” will still knock down all the vapor as a product condenser.

Since I’m modular, I could probably even run the VM port with my plate setup instead of controlling with CM, which can be finicky with my variable pressure from my well water.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by shadylane »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:43 am
I already have a 2 inch stainless shotgun deflegmator I’ve used for my plated setup. I suppose I could just run a 3” to 2” reducer to that for my reflux condenser?
That's what I'd recommend for now.
You can always experiment with different still heads later.
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:43 am Since I’m modular, I could probably even run the VM port with my plate setup instead of controlling with CM, which can be finicky with my variable pressure from my well water.
Search "adjustable water pressure regulators" :wink:
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by shadylane »

still_stirrin wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:31 pm
p.s. - And ALWAYS do at least double distillations, ie - strip + spirit runs. It’ll help you a lot to get to the high purity you’re aiming for.
Good advice :thumbup:
For a two-run neutral, do a strip run, water it down and run it again.
Two runs with a 48" column will be cleaner than single run with a 60" column.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by bluefish_dist »

Having tried several columns and still heads in a search for faster production and still legally vodka (190+ proof) I found height is key. Imho the 20x is not a good gauge of what the column will do. Instead I think you need 15-20 equivalent plates. At 60” of packing (ss scrubbies) in a 2” column I barely cracked 190 proof. From my testing and the parent site, scrubbies are about 4” hetp, so 60/4 is 15. I had better luck with 6ft of packing and a 4” column, 18 plates. That would run 190.1-190.2 from low wines. At a full 8 ft of packing (24 plates) I could run 190.3-190.5 When I stepped up to 6” x 8ft I could pull a half gallon every 20 min at the start, it would taper to a half gallon in an hour or more. It was a little less efficient and was 190.2-190.3, vs the same height in 4 in which could hit 190.5. It also was much more picky on how you stacked the scrubbies. If they were not packed right it would not break 190.

I ran no copper or 1 plate. So I think it’s over rated. I did do a pot still strip run, then baking soda, wait a few days, then a finish run. Was really a space issue. I could not get a tall column on my big still, so instead I would strip and then finish in a smaller still. I also made it a box shape so it was shorter, leaving more space for a column. Also made a T shaped condenser to lower the height.

Supposedly SPP can get a hetp of less than 2” if its run flooded. I had some that I tried on my 2” and never could make it work that well. Also tried structured packing. It looks like stainless steel pucks. It was about 8” hetp. Marbles are about 5” hetp, using soda glass lab marbles. I have heard that lava works well, but never tried it myself as I was always suspect of what it might contain for impurities.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

shadylane wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:36 pm
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:43 am
I already have a 2 inch stainless shotgun deflegmator I’ve used for my plated setup. I suppose I could just run a 3” to 2” reducer to that for my reflux condenser?
That's what I'd recommend for now.
You can always experiment with different still heads later.
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:43 am Since I’m modular, I could probably even run the VM port with my plate setup instead of controlling with CM, which can be finicky with my variable pressure from my well water.
Search "adjustable water pressure regulators" :wink:
Ok, I’ll give the defleg RC a go, if it blowing vapor I supposed I’ll just turn the power down a bit and upgrade later.

For the pressure regulator, I purchased a 25psi regulator that screws right onto the end of the faucet, which definitely helped, but I still see some fluctuation. Do you have a link for a better pressure regulator? That would be a huge help for me!

I also read about running SPP semi flooded. How would one know if you’re semi flooded? I’m assuming this info comes from a sight glass. Which leads me to my next question, where should I place the sight glass? Just below the T, right above the packing? I suppose if I see distillate pooling there, that’s fully flooded?

Also, for the thermometer port, I was thinking that would go just above the packing too…

Sorry if I seem like I’m asking to be spoon fed here, I’ve already been reading quite a bit using the google HD search, but it seems like some of the key threads I’m trying to find are still a bit scattered. Thanks again for the replies!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by shadylane »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:35 pm Do you have a link for a better pressure regulator? That would be a huge help for me!
Something like this.

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:35 pm I also read about running SPP semi flooded.
Save that experiment until you have more experience. :wink:

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:35 pm Also, for the thermometer port, I was thinking that would go just above the packing too…
Sorry if I seem like I’m asking to be spoon fed here,...
Don't worry about a thermo port yet.
We are too lazy to answer all the questions a thermometer will cause.
No big thing about a little spoon feeding. This is the novice section.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Okay I will save that semi flooded experiment, lol. I guess I’m still a little puzzled for how to run this thing when it’s done. I’m assuming almost full power to heat up the low wines, then wait til the column is too hot to touch at the top at the top of the column and I’m seeing reflux, then dial back the power to some specified amount… all I have is a low tech dial on my SCR, sooooo half way? Lol
Once I’ve hit full reflux for a half hour or so, open the VM valve and start collecting at a rate described by members like Dad3000 who have a similar column? Idk this is where I’m starting over with my knowledge. Running my plates is very different, but I feel like I’m really nailing it with my bourbons. I use a thermometer for that mainly to see if I need to adjust the balance of coolant/power if I see the numbers prematurely climbing, although, I rarely need to look at it anymore. I’d assume if I see the thermometer climbing at all on this VM reflux column, it means I’m smearing in tails / collecting too quickly? I suppose my sniffer and taste buds could tell me the same thing.
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Personally I turn power down as soon as I can feel heat coming up the column. It takes a little bit of time for the column to adjust for a change in power and if you keep it full bore too long, it will shoot out the top. Also at full reflux there is no need to run a lot of power. On a 2” I would stabilize at 1200-1400w and run at 1600-1800.

While not a popular opinion I found a thermometer at the still head was critical measurement when running vodka. I could tell when the column was stable as the temperature would no longer drop and at 6200 ft it should be around 164f. Some days lower, some days higher. Depends on the pressure. Once running it might go up .1-.3 then it should be stable for the whole run. If it would go up .1 after getting stable during the run, either I had too much power or not enough reflux and needed to adjust to hold purity. Also I got burned one day when a front came in. I held temperature constant, but it should have been going down as the pressure was dropping and I wasn’t checking abv with a hydrometer often enough to catch the change. Still was above 190 proof, but only 190.1 vs 190.3 ish.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

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bluefish_dist wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 6:55 am Personally I turn power down as soon as I can feel heat coming up the column. It takes a little bit of time for the column to adjust for a change in power and if you keep it full bore too long, it will shoot out the top. Also at full reflux there is no need to run a lot of power. On a 2” I would stabilize at 1200-1400w and run at 1600-1800.

While not a popular opinion I found a thermometer at the still head was critical measurement when running vodka. I could tell when the column was stable as the temperature would no longer drop and at 6200 ft it should be around 164f. Some days lower, some days higher. Depends on the pressure. Once running it might go up .1-.3 then it should be stable for the whole run. If it would go up .1 after getting stable during the run, either I had too much power or not enough reflux and needed to adjust to hold purity. Also I got burned one day when a front came in. I held temperature constant, but it should have been going down as the pressure was dropping and I wasn’t checking abv with a hydrometer often enough to catch the change. Still was above 190 proof, but only 190.1 vs 190.3 ish.
Good point on slowing down the power early. I suppose pushing those tails high up into the SPP just increases the time it takes for them to fall back down.

I went ahead and said screw it and bought 5 liters of the 5mmx5mm SPP from Dr Gradus on ebay. It's a spiraled triangular shape. I did the calculation for 5 liters on a 3" column, which is 43" SPP packing. I stayed up way too late last night reading Odin's whole SPP thread. I'm beat today. haha. Sounds like it's actually undersized for a 3" column, as it doesn't meet that 1/10th diameter rule of thumb, but it's all I could find in a language I can actually understand ha! I still haven't bought the 3" spool yet... maybe I'll get convinced here that the packing might be better for a 2" column with that size of SPP

Tons of great info in Odin's thread AND he actually has a video showing what a semi fluidized state looks like! Different than I was thinking. I just need to decide for myself, as a novice to neutral, where to put these sight glasses. I'm actually thinking of getting 2... one for above the packing - just below the VM tee, and one on the base of the column. Perhaps middle would be a better place than the bottom. I can always get the long spool in two pieces to decide for myself what makes the most sense if I change my mind later. I think I'll go ahead and put a thermometer port in the tee somewhere, just in case, but I need to decide the best location and if I'll need to cover it somehow from the showering reflux. Could be an extra data point for me if I'm not getting the results I expect.

Thanks for the reply bluefish.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by bluefish_dist »

Odin has posted some great stuff. I am a bit sorry I have never met him and got to talk shop. For me I loved figuring out how a still works and how to make it better. I never did multiple thermometers to monitor the temperature gradient in the column. Would have been interesting and I would expect it could help to see when you have hit tails.

Imho SPP is really only useful if you are space limited. If you have space it’s cheaper and easier to use other packing material and make the column taller. I really wish I had been able to make a 15-20 ft column and got the structured packing to work. It was cool stuff and I expect if you could get a tall enough column it would work well. Fwiw, the mfg claimed a hetp around 4” (100mm), but I could never get it to run that well. Same with the SPP from big swede, never could get it to have a hetp sub 4”. It was good looking, but didn’t work better than a simple scrubbie.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

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bluefish_dist wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:53 am Odin has posted some great stuff. I am a bit sorry I have never met him and got to talk shop. For me I loved figuring out how a still works and how to make it better. I never did multiple thermometers to monitor the temperature gradient in the column. Would have been interesting and I would expect it could help to see when you have hit tails.

Imho SPP is really only useful if you are space limited. If you have space it’s cheaper and easier to use other packing material and make the column taller. I really wish I had been able to make a 15-20 ft column and got the structured packing to work. It was cool stuff and I expect if you could get a tall enough column it would work well. Fwiw, the mfg claimed a hetp around 4” (100mm), but I could never get it to run that well. Same with the SPP from big swede, never could get it to have a hetp sub 4”. It was good looking, but didn’t work better than a simple scrubbie.
Yeah I'm pretty impressed with his achievements reading through his threads. One of the great things about this forum, everything is from learned experience, with a little theory mixed in. A true treasure trove of information! New stilling innovations have come right from here!

I'm definitely space limited, hence my interest in this ridiculously expensive packing. Wish I had a barn with a high ceiling! Instead, I'm in a basement laundry room with an angry wife laying in bed right above the still. I'm hoping this vodka and gin gets her on board with my efforts! she loves the good commercial stuff. Having some more quickly consumable product will be a nice plus!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:56 am
bluefish_dist wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:53 am Odin has posted some great stuff. I am a bit sorry I have never met him and got to talk shop. For me I loved figuring out how a still works and how to make it better. I never did multiple thermometers to monitor the temperature gradient in the column. Would have been interesting and I would expect it could help to see when you have hit tails.

Imho SPP is really only useful if you are space limited. If you have space it’s cheaper and easier to use other packing material and make the column taller. I really wish I had been able to make a 15-20 ft column and got the structured packing to work. It was cool stuff and I expect if you could get a tall enough column it would work well. Fwiw, the mfg claimed a hetp around 4” (100mm), but I could never get it to run that well. Same with the SPP from big swede, never could get it to have a hetp sub 4”. It was good looking, but didn’t work better than a simple scrubbie.
Yeah I'm pretty impressed with his achievements reading through his threads. One of the great things about this forum, everything is from learned experience, with a little theory mixed in. A true treasure trove of information! New stilling innovations have come right from here!

I'm definitely space limited, hence my interest in this ridiculously expensive packing. Wish I had a barn with a high ceiling! Instead, I'm in a basement laundry room with an angry wife laying in bed right above the still. She just loves it when she has wet clothes in washer and I'm using the 220V dryer plug-in for my stillin run.... I'm hoping this vodka and gin gets her on board with my efforts! she loves the good commercial stuff. Having some more quickly consumable product will be a nice plus!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:58 am
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:56 am
bluefish_dist wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:53 am Odin has posted some great stuff. I am a bit sorry I have never met him and got to talk shop. For me I loved figuring out how a still works and how to make it better. I never did multiple thermometers to monitor the temperature gradient in the column. Would have been interesting and I would expect it could help to see when you have hit tails.

Imho SPP is really only useful if you are space limited. If you have space it’s cheaper and easier to use other packing material and make the column taller. I really wish I had been able to make a 15-20 ft column and got the structured packing to work. It was cool stuff and I expect if you could get a tall enough column it would work well. Fwiw, the mfg claimed a hetp around 4” (100mm), but I could never get it to run that well. Same with the SPP from big swede, never could get it to have a hetp sub 4”. It was good looking, but didn’t work better than a simple scrubbie.
Yeah I'm pretty impressed with his achievements reading through his threads. One of the great things about this forum, everything is from learned experience, with a little theory mixed in. A true treasure trove of information! New stilling innovations have come right from here!

I'm definitely space limited, hence my interest in this ridiculously expensive packing. Wish I had a barn with a high ceiling! Instead, I'm in a basement laundry room with an angry wife laying in bed right above the still. She just loves it when she has wet clothes in washer and I'm using the 220V dryer plug-in for my stillin run.... I'm hoping this vodka and gin gets her on board with my efforts! she loves the good commercial stuff. Having some more quickly consumable product will be a nice plus!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Well, I took some measurements and ordered my stuff. There is only 2” to the ceiling! Ha! The beauty of my modular equipment allowed me to use a lot of parts I already have. The new column setup only cost me $280, not counting the SPP.

I went with a 3” column with two sight glasses that gives me 51” of packed height. I’ll see the top of my packing in the middle of one of the sight glasses. 5 liters of 5x5 SPP will take up 43”, the rest will be for copper mesh. Figured I’d try out the wad of copper to keep the packing in place instead of a filter plate. I read they can cause flooding issues.

I’ll use my 2” x 8” defleg as a RC. I’m thinking I’ll put a small amount of copper mesh in the holes to try and prevent liquid squirting out.

For the VM port, I’m teeing off and reducing to a 2” ball valve with PTFE seats, then retaining all my existing 2” spools and shotgun PC in a vertical orientation. One thing I’m curious about is if I’ll encounter issues with how much pipe I’ll have above my PC. There’s 28” of spool from a 90degree elbow, after the ball valve until is hits the PC. This allowed me to use my existing takeoff nipple without needing any extra tubing for my collection jars on my rolling table top. I suppose this will provide a bit of passive cooling until it hits the PC.

Thanks again for all the feedback!
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Doing my vinegar run now, an observation.

This 2”x8” defleg may not cut it. Kinda nervous for the sac run.
This may be because I’m running with no packing.

While doing the vinegar run, I realized I didn’t have a 3” cap, so I just put my defleg on top with coolant at full blast. Even with an ice cold defleg, at almost any power level, I can’t keep the steam contained. Turning the power down to the point where it stops, there’s enough passive cooling on the rest of my tee’d off spool tubing, nothing will produce past the VM valve.

My thoughts are, I have no packing holding back all that steam, and it takes much more power to push water and vinegar out the offtake. My hope is on an alcohol run, there’s a lot less vapor trying to escape out the defleg, but man, if I can’t even get distillate to the product condenser because I’m trying to keep vapor held down by the defleg, that’s a problem.

Curious what thoughts you guys have on this.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Alcohol doesn't require as much cooling but be careful and you should fix this. Sounds like it it could potentially leak as the ABV is reduced to a certain point in the boiler.

Lately I've been using my glasses to test for leaks. They fog up right away when exposed to any vapor and I've always got them on so I can take em off and test around all joints very easily..

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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Yeah I test for leaks with a small mirror on a stick that I got from the auto parts store.

Man… good point about getting towards the end of a run. I don’t plan on collecting too far into tails anyways, but this does have me worried.

This defleg will hold full reflux when it’s in CM mode on my 4, 3” bubble plates with my SCR dial just past halfway. Not sure how that will apply to this setup as I may need to provide more vapor with SPP.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by Saltbush Bill »

It could well work once wash is added , water and alcohol behave very differently in a still.
Condensers that struggle to knock down water vapour will easily knockdown everything from a wash or low wines.
At least that's been my experience.
I wouldn't rely on a mirror fogging to find a leak, Ive never found one that way yet........I think it might be a method that only works in really cold climates.
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Re: Wanting to delve into neutral, I know nothing… looking for help

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Hey SB.

The mirror has actually worked well for me in the past. These days, I mainly use it for stripping runs to make sure my condenser is keeping everything knocked down. My entire setup is very robust, welded SS with tri clamps everywhere and PTFE gaskets. I even go a step further and torque the clamps down with a crescent wrench for good measure.

I’ll post up the results of the sac run with the little defleg!

Regarding the defleg knockdown, thanks for the insight! I’ll give it a try on the sac run, but I did bite the bullet and purchased a 10” copper RC made for a 3” column. Looks like yet another vinegar/sac run to clean that thing when it arrives. My wife just loves the vinegar smell in the house! Ha
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