Acid Crash

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morefog
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Acid Crash

Post by morefog »

I feel like I'm doing something wrong. Three sugar heads have acid crashed into the mid-3s even with what I thought was sufficient application of pickling lime. Lord knows I've burned through the bag I got quickly enough. One closely following TFFV with the exception of DADY and a bit more sugar. One on the trub of TFFV, with more sugar added about 2/3 of the way through fermentation. One with some actively fermenting DADY mixed in with the bran replaced with plenty of fresh ground and properly mashed malted barley and malted white wheat, and more sugar added 2/3 of the way done.

I did not measure or control for O-PH, nor did I measure at time of sugar addition. I newly acquire a digital PH meter as my test strips seem unreliable. I managed my temperatures well and fermentation completed, albeit a bit more slowly than I was expecting.

The common denominator seems to be more sugar. By more sugar I mean 1/4# per gallon on top of the 1# per gallon I started with. The reason not to add more sugar is not to stress the yeast. What stresses the yeast? Too much CO2 will do it. Grossly too much sugar will do it (think light maple syrup). Improper temperature control will do it. Improper PH will do it. Is DADY as easily stressed as common yeast?

Given all that I am assuming my PH crashes are caused by excessive sugar additions. Some DADY will be stressed by the excessive acidity which will likely have some effect on my low-wines. I expect I can clean that up in my spirit run. When using DADY I should limit my sugar per gallon to, what?

However there is one catch. I am measuring PH after after reaching or exceeding 0.999. The vessel is deep with a concentric bottom. Could the acidity be rising to the top and I'd get an entirely different (and more favorable) reading from the bottom? Do I need to bust out my wine thief to find out?

Am I adding the pickling lime wrong to boost the PH? Dump some in when fermentation slows and give it a light stir. What is the proper technique to boost 3.5 to 4.5, and when should these additions be made? At what point does pickling lime itself create off-flavors? Is there a stronger benign chemical?

Thanks again. What a great board.
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NZChris
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by NZChris »

I just chuck a couple of whole shells in at the start, or the next day, and let them do the job, keeping records of their weight loss for future reference.
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subbrew
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by subbrew »

If you are waiting until the ph is well into the 3s you will have trouble turning it and getting the yeast to come back. Rather than acting after the fact you need to buffer the wash so it does not crash in the first place. Pickling lime is a OH crap I messed up, I will try to salvage solution. As mentioned above add some shells (calcium carbonate) or some actual calcium carbonate early on. I used to give it a half day to day for the yeast to get going then add some chalk (calcium carbonate) to buffer the solution. Now I just put a hops bag with oyster shell in at the start. Both seem to work.

As for the sugar additions, when pushing for high alcohol a staggered addition is common. But where you only using 1.25 lb per gallon total there is no need. Putting it all in at once should only give a gravity of 1.058 or so. Well below any yeast stress.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I agree with Chris, your over thinking the whole thing, toss a few shells or some chicken scratch in at the very beginning.
Put the PH meter in the cupboard.
morefog wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:39 am Fermentation completed, albeit a bit more slowly than I was expecting.
Does it matter that much if it takes an extra couple of days ?
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by Yummyrum »

I’m a little confused , you say you are getting pH crashes but you measure when its 0.999 or less .

That is not crashed , it’s finished .

A crash it when it stops at say 1.020

Regarding the pH meter . Unless it has three point calibration and you do that before use with known pH buffer solutions , it is vey likely to be out at either ends of the pH scale .
The single point calibrated meters are fairly accurate around pH 5-9 , beyond that , they are often less accurate than strips .
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by Sporacle »

I know its hard, try not to overthink it. As everyone has said throw in a handful of shells or similar. If you are chasing a ph reading every two hours you are in trouble.
Try this next time, do your wash as you have done this time, throw in a handful of shells and pitch your yeast. Do not measure it, look at it or go anywhere near it for a week, check if it is finished after a week and you may be suprised how simple a good sugar wash recipe can be :thumbup:
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by Tokin »

My wash generally starts out at 6.0 ph and finishes at 3.1 - 3.5 in 6 days. Had one stall at 2.9 once. Added some base and it started right back up. Best suggestion like others have said is to toss in a bag of shell when you start your ferment. A ph meter imo is more of a friend in the wine and beer world than distilling but in any case if you're going to use one always buy a quality meter.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by still_stirrin »

morefog wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:39 am… Am I adding the pickling lime wrong to boost the PH? —> Dump some in when fermentation slows and give it a light stir.

What is the proper technique to boost 3.5 to 4.5, and when should these additions be made?

At what point does pickling lime itself create off-flavors? Is there a stronger benign chemical?
Here’s how I do it:
a) Add 1 tsp of pickling lime (calcium hydroxide) to a cup of warm water and stir it vigorously.
b) Pour into fermenter carefully so you don’t splash it back on you. It is a strong base (caustic), so it can burn your skin.
c) Gently stir the ferment to mix in the hydrated lime. Don’t stir vigorously, as that will cause CO2 to break out violently (froth up).

Check the pH again. You may need to make another calcium hydroxide addition. Don’t attempt to raise the pH too fast, so several additions may be needed to raise the pH to 4.0-4.2, which should be enough to restart the ferment.

Calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) won’t add any “flavor” to your spirit. However, because of the acid level, it will reduce the “tingle” on your tongue which can be misconstrued as a taste. But it really is a sensation related to the tartness, or acid level in the wash, similar to the way lemon juice “tastes”.

And, the hydroxide ion combines with the hydrogen ions to create water (H2O) while the calcium is a nutrient for the yeast to spur more activity (reduction of starches into alcohol and CO2).

Sodium hydroxide (lye) is a stronger base. But it is extremely caustic and can cause severe skin burns if contacted. The sodium (salt) is not healthy for the yeast, so I do not recommend using lye. Often commercial drain cleaners use sodium hydroxide to break down clogs because of the way it reduces proteins and fats and other organic material.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by OnceAlive »

still_stirrin wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:16 am c) Gently stir the ferment to mix in the hydrated lime. Don’t stir vigorously, as that will cause CO2 to break out violently (froth up).

ss
Can I ask why is this to be avoided?

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Re: Acid Crash

Post by NormandieStill »

OnceAlive wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:25 am
still_stirrin wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:16 am c) Gently stir the ferment to mix in the hydrated lime. Don’t stir vigorously, as that will cause CO2 to break out violently (froth up).

ss
Can I ask why is this to be avoided?

Once
From my experience of today, it can actually spray foam out of the fermenter! In the worst case it could easily cause a particularly sticky or proteinous wash to overflow. A bit like a puke in the boiler but without the boiler. Same mechanism really.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by Saltbush Bill »

OnceAlive wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:25 am Can I ask why is this to be avoided?
Because a lot of your wash will end up on the floor, additions of other things can cause the same problem.
Suggest you try it , its an experience most of us have had sooner or later.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by morefog »

I didn't bother to quote everyone as the thread isn't that long.

By crash I mean drop into the 3s and the fermentation stopped. I was able to bring up the PH on that batch using pickling lime so that batched finished below 0.999. That batch had been stalled for several days until it was suggested I add pickling lime.

To 'overthink things' I decided to fix the problem with additions to make the original solution too basic. The yeast didn't like that either. I fixed it back to mid 5s and the yeast have finally started to do their thing. This batch was pitched on the spent grains and active yeast of the last batch so I was very surprised that it stalled. There were a lot of spent grains, but I didn't account for spent grains contributing little PH to a batch compared to fresh grains. This batch probably would have worked fine if I hadn't messed with it.

After having experienced a few stalled fermentations, I've come to the conclusion that PH is important. Not in the broad middle, but at the extremes. In beer I never bothered to pay attention to PH. It did what it did and I was happy. Against advice I'm going to pay more attention to my PH until I get the hang of it, then I'll go back to my devil-may-care ways and take the battery out of the PH meter. The PH meter is one with three touch points for calibration.

I care how long it takes to finish as it will be coldest where I am Friday and cooling water is expensive. Plus this is a double batch so the first ferment is ready to run and I'd rather not let it sit any longer than necessary.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by morefog »

subbrew wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 pm As for the sugar additions, when pushing for high alcohol a staggered addition is common. But where you only using 1.25 lb per gallon total there is no need. Putting it all in at once should only give a gravity of 1.058 or so. Well below any yeast stress.
My last stripping run produced way more output than I was anticipating, which probably means I dumped quite a bit of sugar in. Starting with TFFV but with DADY, how many pounds of sugar is reasonable to use per gallon? The rule of thumb of 1-lb per gallon seems quaint. Thanks for the 1.058 calc. I often made beers above 1.100, which seems a nice round target. But I figured I'd ask first this time.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by subbrew »

morefog wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:00 pm
My last stripping run produced way more output than I was anticipating, which probably means I dumped quite a bit of sugar in. Starting with TFFV but with DADY, how many pounds of sugar is reasonable to use per gallon? The rule of thumb of 1-lb per gallon seems quaint. Thanks for the 1.058 calc. I often made beers above 1.100, which seems a nice round target. But I figured I'd ask first this time.
How high do you want your abv of the wash? Rule of thumb is about 8% for a mash and perhaps 10% for a wash. If you have fermented other products a sugar was is very similar to wine or mead, in which you expect the final gravity to head to zero unlike beer where you expect a final gravity of between 1.008 and 1.030 for most I have brewed. Sugar gives 47 gravity points per lb per gallon. So if you are shooting for a 10% wash and use good fermentation, nutrients, temp and pitching rate you would use a starting gravity of 1.077 or 1.64 lb of sugar per gallon
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by OnceAlive »

Thanks NormandieStill & Saltbush Bill for the follow up.
SBB: Tempting suggestion but I won't push it... looking forward to it though :P
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by morefog »

subbrew wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:50 pm Sugar gives 47 gravity points per lb per gallon. So if you are shooting for a 10% wash and use good fermentation, nutrients, temp and pitching rate you would use a starting gravity of 1.077 or 1.64 lb of sugar per gallon
That. Thanks.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by bluefish_dist »

OnceAlive wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:25 am
still_stirrin wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:16 am c) Gently stir the ferment to mix in the hydrated lime. Don’t stir vigorously, as that will cause CO2 to break out violently (froth up).

ss
Can I ask why is this to be avoided?

Once
Because it’s like dropping a mentos in coke. The wash is highly carbonated and anything to nucleat the co2 will cause a huge outgassing and a geyser of wash shooting out of your fermenter onto the floor.
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morefog
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by morefog »

After pickling lime additions to bring into the mid-4s I'm seeing mid-to high 3s the next morning. I'm not stingy with the lime and it's starting to get to be an expensive component. When the PH gets too low, fermentation stalls. Is there something cheaper for raising PH?

There may be a temperature component, but that's a different post.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by Sporacle »

morefog wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:01 pm When the PH gets too low, fermentation stalls
How are you determining that the ferment has stalled?
Sorry if you've mentioned it before whats the ferment temp at the stall?
Last question what's the SG at the stall point?
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by morefog »

Ferment stalled by hydrometer, usually stalls around 1.025 SG, picking lime addition to bring it into the 4s kicks it off again. This is a few days later so let me see if I can remember.

Temperature would have been between 75F-90F with DADY. My setup requires manual temperature management. My automation and safety, though reliable, is active observation only. I currently use a steam jacketed kettle with hot water. I've ordered an electric element, but that brings me back to potential automation fail problems resulting in an unplanned and unobserved distillation. I do have an insulated and heated fermenter, which would do a much better job at maintaining temperature, but I can't get a hydrometer reading on it.
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Re: Acid Crash

Post by bluefish_dist »

I used a simple inkbird controller for fermenter control. Took a 5500w element and ran it on 110 so it was about 1000w. Worked great. Element at the bottom and temp probe at top to promote convection. Otherwise is got stratified fermentation. Hot on the top, cold on the bottom. With only 1kw for 100 gal, I was in no danger of the wash/wort boiling if the controller failed in the on position. For a smaller container, just use a smaller element.
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