Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Other discussions for folks new to the wonderful craft of home distilling.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

977938A9-56EA-4256-82FD-326D2D31BF7A.jpeg
Hey guys,

I seem to be on a bad luck streak lately after months of success. No idea what happened in my current sprit run, but I think something may have scorched on the internal element because the distillate tastes gross. This is a single HBB run with 2 bubble plates, usually turns out fantastic with tons of flavor. I’ve done it many, many times this way.

Half way through the run, my “should be” hearts jars are gross and have a bitter tinge to them with a kind of weird vegetal note. I’ve never scorched anything before, so I don’t really know what I’m looking for, but I’m sure I’ll find out when I look at the element after draining the boiler. It didn’t matter how much reflux or how low and slow I ran it, this crap kept bleeding though. I ended up saying screw if and just decided to strip it for another run, planning to dilute it with a bunch of water to hopefully clean it up with some extra reflux. If it’s scorched it’s gonna go down the drain.

I’m also wondering if this wash just wasn’t clear enough. I cold crashed it after squeezing the grains for 24 hours and racked it off the cream into the boiler, but there was still a little murkiness. This is my normal practice. I’ve ran stuff on the murky side before without any noticeable issue until now. Live and learn I suppose. This could also be from the tails feints I added from a couple previous spirit runs that I squeezed out once the jars went bitter. I usually don’t collect this stuff, but I wanted to see if I could improve my hearts yield. I suppose I could have simply tainted my product too much for only running two plates. To many variables to pin point.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness rant… Here’s my question/concern… I noticed after I shut off the reflux and started running in pot still mode through the bubble caps, there’s an orange tinge appearing on the sight glasses, I’m it’s assuming from the copper… the distillate is still clear though. I’m guessing it’s crud that built up on the surface of the plates coming off with the extra heat and not draining down into the boiler. I’m also noticing black crud building up around the caps and also on the lower part of my normally brown copper reflux coil. I can actually wipe it off with my finger. Should I be concerned with the safety of these low wines? Should I strip off the patina on the copper with vinegar and do some cleaning runs?
5A5D9D89-40E3-492F-AB4F-5AA882B960BD.jpeg
Edit: after a bit more thought, I remember this smell from when I was really new to the hobby and tried running UJSSM through my still with no copper in there… sulfur. This could explain the excess crud on the RC. I also use a twisted piece of copper mesh to stuff in the outlet of my PC to help create a stream. It’s turning black too. Just smelled the low wines…. Nice and eggy. God damn. I literally did everything the same as I always do with the ferment. I even add DAP for good measure.

I still use a stainless rig, but the plates and RC are copper. I even throw a couple wads of copper mesh in the boiler for good measure. Maybe this ferment went off and became an excess sulfur producer without me realizing it. I didn’t notice any rotten egg smell, the wash seemed normal. Meh, who knows.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by NZChris »

Please report back after you've seen the element.

Had you done a starch test?
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7652
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by Yummyrum »

I’m pretty confident that the colour on the glass has nothing to do with copper and everything to do with smoke .
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Hey guys. More pics.

No scorch on the element, looks normal to me. I usually start seeing a slight brown tinge appearing over time which I scrub off periodically with soap and a scrubber.
DE395FBC-EF45-46B2-ADE7-6A65F716D9BE.jpeg
Check out the underside of the plates! You can’t tell from the photo but there was this flakey silvery purple build up I assume to be a salt that forms with copper and sulfides. It was actually quite cool looking. It blasted off with a hose no problem.
04BED55A-EA7B-4596-9D13-A670D47D6D84.jpeg
Here’s my guess, for some freak reason I got an insanely sulfur laden wash on my hands. For the life of me I can’t tell you why this would happen from fermentation as I always use nutrient and calcium in the mash and pitch plenty of yeast. I temp controlled the thing between 83-85 degrees with DADY yeast. I even use some DAP for good measure. These low wines smell like full on rotten egg after last nights run.

I have a crazy thought, which I also posted about a couple weeks ago, maybe the culprit could be the water I used. I’m on well water at my home, so for my homebrewing and distilling I use an RO device that essentially removes everything from the water down to 0ppm. The raw well water is nasty, full of sulfur and iron. I may have made two mistakes that night I collected. I accidentally used my hot water tap and it ran like that all night long. I actually thought I destroyed the filters by doing this, but I tested the unit yesterday with cold water and the output still read 0ppm. I also may have timed the collection poorly and did it when my softener goes through it’s regen cycle at night, I normally make sure not to do this, but I can’t remember if I did that night. When the regen happens, raw well water bypasses my softener and filters, coming into the home if you run any water at all. I did notice when taking a shower the next day, the water did not feel softened, maybe because my hot water tank was full of raw well water. I did test the water I collected with my TDS meter and it came in at 3ppm. I tasted it too and didn’t notice anything off. Maybe whatever may have came through was actually sulfur.

The weird part of all of this. I ran the first part of the wash two days ago with success, but it was very clear. I did notice a slight tinge of some of that vegetal smell sticking to the inside of my tasting glass, but my finished cut seems totally fine and delicious as usual.

Here’s my hypothesis:

I should have waited a couple more days for the squeezed grains portion of the wash to completely clear. Normally it only takes 24 hrs in my chest freezer, but the yeast didn’t seem to settle as much this time. I believe by cooking the yeast in my boiler, it released and excessive amount of sulfur into solution and created a ton of buildup on the copper. When I went into pot still mode, this build up got free and created the haze on the sight glasses.

When I drained the boiler, the wash had a lot of particulate in it that I believe you be cooked yeast. Again, this whole streak of bad luck is a live and learn moment I’m sure many of us go through at least once. I’m really curious what your guys’ thoughts are on this. Maybe some of the other members can learn from my boneheaded-ness.

Now I’m wondering what to do with my eggy low wines… my initial thought is to run it again with a ton of copper mesh in the vapor path to try and clean it up. Essentially doing another stripping run before a spirit run. Perhaps another spirit run with the mesh will suffice.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by LWTCS »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:53 am I’m pretty confident that the colour on the glass has nothing to do with copper and everything to do with smoke .
100%
Just typical coloration.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

NZChris wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:43 pm Please report back after you've seen the element.

Had you done a starch test?
Hey Chris,

Yes, I always test with iodine before pitching yeast. No starch was present. The total alcohol yield is what I usually get, just eggy this time.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

LWTCS wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:26 am
Yummyrum wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:53 am I’m pretty confident that the colour on the glass has nothing to do with copper and everything to do with smoke .
100%
Just typical coloration.
Do you think the copper patina forming started producing a smoke on the glass?
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by LWTCS »

Smoke? Perhaps not the most accurate descriptor. It is residue.

Copper is indeed reactive metal. Nearly all of the constituents in the typical kettle charge (including air) will react with copper.
An acidic environment can dissolve copper. Spent beer is acidic.

Once the patina on your copper forms, you should see a bit less residue accumulation on your glass.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by LWTCS »

I guess I read yummy's response incorrectly.

The sludge on the bottom of your plates has been the topic of discussion many times in various forums.

Jeff Van Horn (from Moab Brewing / Distilling) reckons low sulfer producing yeast is a requisite to reduce this issue. He also asserts that a Diacityl rest helps reduce this problem.

Here are his comments:

Hey Larry,

Yes, a diacetyl rest is a temperature adjustment at final gravity. If you have the ability to control temperature, you will set the temperature at 56F for a 24 hour period. This will allow the yeast to release Diacityl and sulfur compounds lowering VDK’s (vicinal diketones) in solution. It appears that the silver stuff is sulfur buildup. After each beer strip we back flush the still to clean up some of that build up.
Keep in mind the yeast you are using to ferment should be a low sulfur producer and producing a wash that is to high in sugars in order to get more alcohol is not a good strategy. I get that it’s real estate but an 8% wash at 500 gallons will produce a 53 gallon barrel of spirit. I have an article on VDK I will send it to you. Good to hear from you, I hope you are doing well.

Cheers,

Jeff Van Horn
Moab Brewery


And here is the article:
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/OFH8CHBicP/
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

LWTCS wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:52 pm Smoke? Perhaps not the most accurate descriptor. It is residue.

Copper is indeed reactive metal. Nearly all of the constituents in the typical kettle charge (including air) will react with copper.
An acidic environment can dissolve copper. Spent beer is acidic.

Once the patina on your copper forms, you should see a bit less residue accumulation on your glass.
Thanks for the clarification. I suppose I’ll skip the step of removing the patina down to bare copper again. I did this one time in the past and it had a noticeably negative affect on my whiskey and took a handful of runs before the flavor came back. I’ll take the plate apart and just clean the glass. Doesn’t look so pretty anymore haha.

I’m also thinking about running some steam through the rig to get rid of some of the left over funky smell before my next runs. I’m really hopeful another distillation with more copper will clean up my stinky low wines. Bummer I’ll lose some flavor by re-running it.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

LWTCS wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:14 pm I guess I read yummy's response incorrectly.

The sludge on the bottom of your plates has been the topic of discussion many times in various forums.

Jeff Van Horn (from Moab Brewing / Distilling) reckons low sulfer producing yeast is a requisite to reduce this issue. He also asserts that a Diacityl rest helps reduce this problem.

Here are his comments:

Hey Larry,

Yes, a diacetyl rest is a temperature adjustment at final gravity. If you have the ability to control temperature, you will set the temperature at 56F for a 24 hour period. This will allow the yeast to release Diacityl and sulfur compounds lowering VDK’s (vicinal diketones) in solution. It appears that the silver stuff is sulfur buildup. After each beer strip we back flush the still to clean up some of that build up.
Keep in mind the yeast you are using to ferment should be a low sulfur producer and producing a wash that is to high in sugars in order to get more alcohol is not a good strategy. I get that it’s real estate but an 8% wash at 500 gallons will produce a 53 gallon barrel of spirit. I have an article on VDK I will send it to you. Good to hear from you, I hope you are doing well.

Cheers,

Jeff Van Horn
Moab Brewery


And here is the article:
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/OFH8CHBicP/
Thanks man! I’m wondering if DADY is a more prominent sulfur producer than bakers. I’ve used US-05 for this recipe many times in the past, but my ambient temps are too high in the summer to keep it within its temperature range. It’s also much more costly, but good whiskey is worth it.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by LWTCS »

Make another beer and dilute your low wines with the beer to help retain your whiskey goodness.

You'll get better still behavior too.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by HDNB »

the silver is just oils from the grain. like LWTCS says, normal patina/discoloration.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
BrewinBrian44
Rumrunner
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

HDNB wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:41 am the silver is just oils from the grain. like LWTCS says, normal patina/discoloration.
That’s interesting. This is actually the first time I’ve noticed it on the underside of the plates with this recipe. Glad to know I shouldn’t be too worried about it.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12835
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Orange tint developing in bubble plate sight glass

Post by LWTCS »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:24 am
HDNB wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:41 am the silver is just oils from the grain. like LWTCS says, normal patina/discoloration.
That’s interesting. This is actually the first time I’ve noticed it on the underside of the plates with this recipe. Glad to know I shouldn’t be too worried about it.
Yeah, its not that uncommon though doesn't always happen.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Post Reply