Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by LWTCS »

@cartoonstiller, the PID works just fine for controlling oil as the heating media. In fact once the mass is brought to temp, it will require far less input because oil does such a nice job of holding heat.
The problem with that is that once brought to temp the oil mass allows for no meaningful adjustment. And as mentioned 17kw to get to temp is a bit lean.

But yeah, 12 hours to render a 500L kettle charge with 16% sounds,,,,mind numbing.

Also with that slow running speed you'll never be able to exploit the pot still to its fullest potential with respect to getting flavor to carry over.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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LWTCS wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:16 am @cartoonstiller, the PID works just fine for controlling oil as the heating media. In fact once the mass is brought to temp, it will require far less input because oil does such a nice job of holding heat.
The problem with that is that once brought to temp the oil mass allows for no meaningful adjustment. And as mentioned 17kw to get to temp is a bit lean.

But yeah, 12 hours to render a 500L kettle charge with 16% sounds,,,,mind numbing for a pro level operation.

Also with that slow running speed you'll never be able to exploit the pot still to its fullest potential with respect to getting flavor to carry over.
You need twice as much heat input.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by MartinCash »

From the Wiki, starter only, I just used the search field above: https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Reflux
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by BoomTown »

LWTCS wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:40 am
BoomTown wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:40 pm
MartinCash wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:21 pm

Before adding anything, please learn about reflux ratio and its effect on ethanol concentration. Then meditate on the effect of changing the boil or collection rates on reflux rate and proof.
Is there a specific source you’d recommend for learning about this?

Boomtown needs to learn more about this.

Source?
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What specifically are you lacking?

I’m gearing up to build a refactoring still, and want to optimize the size relationship of each stage to a phase (I.? Fients, Heads, Harts, and tails), Have a tightly controlled heat source, and 90% of column will be insulated. Objective is to draw each stage off from a specific segment of the column
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by LWTCS »

BoomTown wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:38 pm
LWTCS wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 3:40 am
BoomTown wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:40 pm
MartinCash wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:21 pm

Before adding anything, please learn about reflux ratio and its effect on ethanol concentration. Then meditate on the effect of changing the boil or collection rates on reflux rate and proof.
Is there a specific source you’d recommend for learning about this?

Boomtown needs to learn more about this.

Source?
Boom you are at the center of the hobby distilling universe now. It's all here.

What specifically are you lacking?

I’m gearing up to build a refactoring still, and want to optimize the size relationship of each stage to a phase (I.? Fients, Heads, Harts, and tails), Have a tightly controlled heat source, and 90% of column will be insulated. Objective is to draw each stage off from a specific segment of the column

Ah sure.
LM take off ports and actual (bubble cap) plates would be best.
You'll need a trap at each take off port in order to not pull vapor.
The center of your take off port should be aligned with the very top of your bubble caps. This ensures that the plate does not run dry.

Pulling product off as liquid will allow heads constituents more opportunity to flash and continue upward toward the top of the apparatus.

You will need a goodly performing reflux condenser that will allow you to bleed heads off as vapor.
So you'll need a product condenser to cool your product that is pulled off at any given plate level. And also a heads product condenser unless you are able to create a vent stack that will allow heads vapor to be discharged toward a safe , well ventilated blow off.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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Something like this:
Screenshot_20210809-201633_Drive.jpg
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by LWTCS »

If you go with structured, random packing you can use a more well known LM take off system.
But I would recommend an iteration of the above system design though I'm sure that the more well known Bok style take off would be more affordable.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by greggn »

cartoonStiller wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:48 am
Currently we are experiencing extremely slow distillation speed taking about 12 hours to get 80l from a 16% wash or am I simply being impatient.

What product are you making that starts with a 16% wash ?
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by Setsumi »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:15 pm
Pulling product off as liquid will allow heads constituents more opportunity to flash and continue upward toward the top of the apparatus.

You will need a goodly performing reflux condenser that will allow you to bleed heads off as vapor.
So you'll need a product condenser to cool your product that is pulled off at any given plate level. And also a heads product condenser unless you are able to create a vent stack that will allow heads vapor to be discharged toward a safe , well ventilated blow off.
Is this on par with the heads trap promoted by Riku and Miles? And not to intrude on this thread... would a heads section/ vent as you describe benefit a 3 chamber still? Not refering to a 3 plater but like the old wiskey stills like leopold bros has and recently discussed on SD.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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Setsumi wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 9:39 am
LWTCS wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:15 pm
Pulling product off as liquid will allow heads constituents more opportunity to flash and continue upward toward the top of the apparatus.

You will need a goodly performing reflux condenser that will allow you to bleed heads off as vapor.
So you'll need a product condenser to cool your product that is pulled off at any given plate level. And also a heads product condenser unless you are able to create a vent stack that will allow heads vapor to be discharged toward a safe , well ventilated blow off.
Is this on par with the heads trap promoted by Riku and Miles? And not to intrude on this thread... would a heads section/ vent as you describe benefit a 3 chamber still? Not refering to a 3 plater but like the old wiskey stills like leopold bros has and recently discussed on SD.
I've not read Riku's book so I am not familiar.
I believe Myles was collecting heads with a Bok head mounted above his VM take off port. So heads directly out of the column as liquid. Product out as VM however. This is fine for batch.

One of the ( continuous) 3 chamber examples on the SD forum does have an elevated reboiler/thumper with a spirit column that does have the ability to draw product off LM style while bleeding heads off of the top of the spirit column as vapor. The elevated reboiler/thumper allows the system to run in continuous mode without having to use a mechanized system to return any overflow to the top chamber. Beer feed is predicated upon the bottom chamber temperature or the head temp within the thumper. Determining the target temp location depends upon the heat input. The control system allows for the operator to choose.

As far as making cuts on a Leopold type 3 chamber goes, are you talking about making cuts on a strip run?
Or referring to a system that also has finished spirit capability?
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by Setsumi »

Thanks, myself did not read Riku' book but Myles had a drawing. But never got aroud to build one.

My interest in 3 chambers lies on hobby scale. So finishing product can be batched. Stripping should be a bit more hands off for lager volume production, not necessarily in shorter time. A still that does all in one for flavoured spirits on hobby level may be a bit much to ask for...
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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Reference has been made to “ Riku and Miles”, and a book. Can someone fill in my blanks…who are Riku and Miles, and what’s the name of the book, and is it available?
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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BoomTown wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:31 am Reference has been made to “ Riku and Miles”, and a book. Can someone fill in my blanks…who are Riku and Miles, and what’s the name of the book, and is it available?
My mistake, it is myles not Miles... this is from around 2010. Riku posted here but had/has his own forum. He promoted ARC... automated reflux column for neutral. Most interesting at that time for me was the heads trap. You had to buy Riku's book to join his forum and to have acces to certain info, like the heads trap. His input here was valued and members thought his book valuable.  Myles is also a respected member and had a thread with his own? iteration of the heads trap. Unfortuanetly i can not find it.

My question on the heads trap and reference to the members was off topic but within the immediate discussion.  On continious runs you need to manage fractions differently than on batch runs and Larry mentiond a heads vent..... click goes the grey matter 10 years back... as if yesterday.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You can find build threads and information by myles on most distilling forums that exist.......hes still floating around.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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I have 100% respect for Myles and his contribution to the hobby over the years , his latest setup I have seen ( which is absolutely spectacular) does not include a heads trap .

So I would say Myles has been there , done that and decided he did not need to include it in his , …. what looks to me …. , as a final setup
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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Yummyrum wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:48 am I have 100% respect for Myles and his contribution to the hobby over the years , his latest setup I have seen ( which is absolutely spectacular) does not include a heads trap .

So I would say Myles has been there , done that and decided he did not need to include it in his , …. what looks to me …. , as a final setup

Yeah for batch I agree. Its superfluous.
On the continuous side there is merit. Though I would never collect finished spirit as VM . Only LM
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by BoomTown »

I’ve managed to acquire all the pieces needed for my planned reflux column, Except a 3way SS mini valve. :problem: :?: I’m hoping to use it to divert liquid from one chamber to another for recirculating distillate.

Does anyone know of a good source? :?: I’m using ⅜” copper tubing and pressure connectors for the LM collection lines, so the ideal 3way would match the other valves.

Thanks in advance for the help.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by BoomTown »

LWTCS wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:03 pm
Yummyrum wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:48 am I have 100% respect for Myles and his contribution to the hobby over the years , his latest setup I have seen ( which is absolutely spectacular) does not include a heads trap .

So I would say Myles has been there , done that and decided he did not need to include it in his , …. what looks to me …. , as a final setup

Yeah for batch I agree. Its superfluous.
On the continuous side there is merit. Though I would never collect finished spirit as VM . Only LM
I found the book referenced. It’s on its way. Thanks for the guidance.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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BoomTown wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:42 am
LWTCS wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:03 pm
Yummyrum wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:48 am I have 100% respect for Myles and his contribution to the hobby over the years , his latest setup I have seen ( which is absolutely spectacular) does not include a heads trap .

So I would say Myles has been there , done that and decided he did not need to include it in his , …. what looks to me …. , as a final setup

Yeah for batch I agree. Its superfluous.
On the continuous side there is merit. Though I would never collect finished spirit as VM . Only LM
I
I found the book referenced. It’s on its way. Thanks for the guidance.

You know what? I guess I need to revisit my response here after studying the classic armagnac still designs the last few days.
Cuts are not made on that design so collecting product as vapor matters not evidently.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by Setsumi »

BoomTown wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:40 am I’ve managed to acquire all the pieces needed for my planned reflux column, Except a 3way SS mini valve. :problem: :?: I’m hoping to use it to divert liquid from one chamber to another for recirculating distillate.

Does anyone know of a good source? :?: I’m using ⅜” copper tubing and pressure connectors for the LM collection lines, so the ideal 3way would match the other valves.

Thanks in advance for the help.
Search RLM or reverse liquid management on the Bokakob. The liquid is diverted back into the column and you regulate take off by throttle the liquid to the column. The idea is sound but it only adds complexity for me.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by LB Miles »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:17 pm Something like this:
Screenshot_20210809-201633_Drive.jpg
Hello Lewis, is there any dedicated thread for such column design? If there is, then excuse me for not being able to find it on my own.
Honestly I was surprised to see this posted by you, here and now because I've read a thread dated a few years back that said multiple product takeoff points were practically impossible to achieve effectively on a hobby scale. At the time I thought the nails were already pounded into the coffin regarding this idea. But now you give me hope about it. Especially that my curiosity peaked once I saw the huge continuous still at Still Austin.
So if you can point me to any thread or other resource to learn more about the topic on small scale, I'd really appreciate it!
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

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LB Miles wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:43 am
LWTCS wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:17 pm Something like this:
Screenshot_20210809-201633_Drive.jpg
Hello Lewis, is there any dedicated thread for such column design? If there is, then excuse me for not being able to find it on my own.
Honestly I was surprised to see this posted by you, here and now because I've read a thread dated a few years back that said multiple product takeoff points were practically impossible to achieve effectively on a hobby scale. At the time I thought the nails were already pounded into the coffin regarding this idea. But now you give me hope about it. Especially that my curiosity peaked once I saw the huge continuous still at Still Austin.
So if you can point me to any thread or other resource to learn more about the topic on small scale, I'd really appreciate it!

Hi LB Miles,
Though that picture illustrated is a 4" spirit column, it is connected to a (4") stripper column that has the ability to process nearly 40 gallons of beer per hour. Hardly a hobby sized system with respect to processing capability.

However the concept of pulling product from a liquid management system is very common.
An LM take off port at each plate level certainly allows for a flavor profile, mouth feel and ABV to be isolated accordingly.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by LB Miles »

LWTCS wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:30 pm
LB Miles wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:43 am
LWTCS wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:17 pm Something like this:

Hi LB Miles,
Though that picture illustrated is a 4" spirit column, it is connected to a (4") stripper column that has the ability to process nearly 40 gallons of beer per hour. Hardly a hobby sized system with respect to processing capability.

However the concept of pulling product from a liquid management system is very common.
An LM take off port at each plate level certainly allows for a flavor profile, mouth feel and ABV to be isolated accordingly.
Oh, I see. It was a happy moment for a bit. But if the process can be scaled down from a true industrial size, to a 4" column, then perhaps it could be scaled down further, and ran as a relatively big batch process. I understand that this forum is made for the art more so than the crazy competitive engineering and innovation, but it's in my nature to grind my gears on such fascinating things as this. Basically it's a still that makes the cuts for you, right? And by this, please know that I do not mean I believe a still can be left running unattended. But it's nonetheless highly interesting.

Thank you Lewis for your response!
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by Yummyrum »

LB Miles wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:58 am Basically it's a still that makes the cuts for you, right?
Well yes , but only because a human has tasted whats coming off it and adjust takeoff valve on plate x to pull off so much and valve in plate y to pull off so much blaa blaa up the column .

It also assumes that wash after wash are very similar .
LB Miles wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:58 am but it's in my nature to grind my gears on such fascinating things as this
So true , I get that same feeling .

I think that continuous strippers have a place in Home distilling . I like the fascination of a Continuous rectifier attached to it but whoo , thats something fir my retirement . No spare time for that other than musing the idea
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by bluefish_dist »

I am not sure a column with various takeoff locations is very useful for small batch runs. A still works by separating fractions be weight/boiling point. When using a single take off point at the top we pull off the lightest component, then the next lightest component, until nothing is left. So we fraction over time from lightest to heaviest. Multiple takeoffs would allow removing multiple comments at once, but as with a single takeoff it would still fraction by time as it’s a batch. What would come out of each takeoff would not be a constant fraction as the fractions in the boiler change over time.

This is in contrast to a continuous still where there is a constant input. Because the input has all the fractions you can separate them by height. The still separates the fractions by height, but since the “boiler” fractions don’t change like a batch, what ends up at each height is constant. This allows each takeoff point to put out the same product over time.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by LWTCS »

Yep, Bluefish_dist.
This sounds logical.

There may be a window of opportunity to fractionate, but I theorize that window would close pretty quickly with batch.

I suspect the best way to get optimal fractionation is to run a relatively small column with an oversized kettle charge. And even then, at some point the behavior/flavor profile will change once the kettle charge crosses a threshold.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by LB Miles »

bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:20 am I am not sure a column with various takeoff locations is very useful for small batch runs. A still works by separating fractions be weight/boiling point. When using a single take off point at the top we pull off the lightest component, then the next lightest component, until nothing is left. So we fraction over time from lightest to heaviest. Multiple takeoffs would allow removing multiple comments at once, but as with a single takeoff it would still fraction by time as it’s a batch. What would come out of each takeoff would not be a constant fraction as the fractions in the boiler change over time.

This is in contrast to a continuous still where there is a constant input. Because the input has all the fractions you can separate them by height. The still separates the fractions by height, but since the “boiler” fractions don’t change like a batch, what ends up at each height is constant. This allows each takeoff point to put out the same product over time.
Ah, I understand what you mean. Having a constant input will force each fraction to end up at the same predictable place, while a batch will end up with a sort of smearing as heavier fractions will eventually be all that's left, and start traveling farther up the column, and coming out of every takeoff port.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by LB Miles »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:56 am Yep, Bluefish_dist.
This sounds logical.

There may be a window of opportunity to fractionate, but I theorize that window would close pretty quickly with batch.

I suspect the best way to get optimal fractionation is to run a relatively small column with an oversized kettle charge. And even then, at some point the behavior/flavor profile will change once the kettle charge crosses a threshold.
Making such a theoretical minimum boiler charge self-defeating since it will have a ridiculously long heat up and run times with such a relatively small column size, basically leading back to why the batch and continuous processes are the way they are.

Of all the threads I've read on this forum during the past year, they all amount to a drop in the ocean of knowledge and wisdom accumulated here. But I'm certain that with time, all of the dead-ends will have what will by then seem "obvious" solutions, just as we now see solutions to old problems as obvious, too.
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Re: Is it true: Wider column = faster run?

Post by The Baker »

About the time he pulled the plug (on his own forum) Harry had designed a little continuous still.
A table top model.
I don't know the details of course, it would be beyond me anyway.

I suspect that those who turn somewhat of a blind eye to genuine enthusiasts
were unwilling to see a housewife buy one that operates quietly and continuously to put on her bench.

But that is just what I suspect....

He seemed to be excited about the design and really sad it could not proceed.

Geoff

( accidentally edited by LWTCS. Shoot sorry Geoff) Manu solved the small scale continuous solution. Though I think both Harry and Manu's were only for stripping? Correct me if I do not recall correctly.

There are some other small scale examples out in the wild too.
Abbott at Teluride built a little table top unit. That video of that fellow running a little system posted here a few months back. Couple others too.

Not to mention Yummy and a couple tew fellers here.
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