How to determine thumper size?

[bellybuster]

I'm not a thumper guy and either and I come up the same as you MC. Makes absolute sense.

But I'm going with a dixie cup for a thumper anyway, Is waxed paper on the safe to use list??? For those that can't tell the difference, that was a joke. I would never use an actual brand name Dixie cup, only dollar store replicas)

[Brutal]

I stand by my calculations and will respectfully disagree with those who believe differently here.

Which is everybody. Your calculations sound like someone who has never done something trying to tell someone who does it everyday how to do their job. "Because this equation says so" vs "Years of experience." Your equation is either wrong or you misunderstood it.

As for the glass thumper dead horse, please do some reading here. Nobody thinks that's a worthwhile idea. If your thumper was going to be that small why bother having one at all? The safety issue is obvious. Oh and you are not ever "in a pinch" to run some likker. Not ever.

[Usge]

I've run a thumper for years. On different size rigs. On a 5 gal one (8 gal pot) with a 2 gal thump keg. Starting with just enough liquid to cover the downtube, that thumper ran at around half -full (1 gal) most of the time. And that was running 5 gals of 10% UJSM wash. The basic operating principal is....the longer it takes for your thumper to come online, the more it's gonna fill before it stabilizes. So, "beyond" any basic output volume calcs (btw...5 gals of 10% out of a potstill is gonna net you close to a gal at around a collective 35% abv....not 1/2 gal), there is the consideration of what you fill your thumper with and how long it takes to come online and reach energy parity with the main pot...that could dramatically alter your volume/capacity needs for your thump keg. But, I can just tell you from my own experience...I wouldn't use a 1/2 gal thumper on a 5 gal rig. YMMV.

[thumper123]

Thank you. Is there ryme or reason to the 30-40% rule? Also, how do you run the thumper, do you put feints or mash or anything in it to start off with? Does it make sense to pypass a thumper to collect foreshots, then use switch to the thumper? If that makes sense I was going to do some sort of valve set up to make it work that way.
Thanks again.

Yankee, you pose some very interesting questions. First of all, there certainly isn't any rhyme or reason to the 30-40% rule, it's a guideline. I currently run a thumper that just barely makes 25% of my pot, and it works better than versions I've tried that were bigger and smaller. I run a small five gallon pot. I have no problems with too much condensate or not enough. As to your second question, no, don't put a damn thing in your thumper initially. You want to get rid of the foreshots (or heads in my case) right away. By the time condensate builds up in the thumper you'll be at or close to collecting hearts. That's the easy way.

[Usge]

You'll get the highest efficiency (in terms of proof, etc) out of your thumper by running less liquid in your thumper initially. But, you'll be foregoing any filtering (water)/smoothing/flavoring that it can offer. The bottom line is what it tastes like when you get done. So, long as that tastes good to you....it's all good!

thumper123, it is an interesting question (*ie., fores, etc). Some parrots have a by-pass valve for the same reason (to avoid any smearing, etc). I've also heard of guys running plated stills (flutes) doing the same thing...ie., letting the vapor come up and pass the dephelgmator and condensing out before turning it on and returning the vapor as reflux to the plates. I would suspect that the reason you've found that particular size thumper to work best for you is "because" you run the way you do...ie., starting empty. A larger empty thumper would take much longer to fill and might pass more of the run than you want before it comes online and visa/versa. As to that regard...we haven't discussed the "shape" of the thumper yet. (ie., tall and thin, vs wider and shorter). Which might be a way to optimize your thumper response for any given way you like to run. But, I'm not certain just how much difference in the end it would make. I've tried this as well by accident...(letting the vapor pass the thumper for fores, etc.). I didn't have enough liquid in the thumper. So, it started producing dripping out of the product condensor before the thumper actually filled enough to come/online. I didn't really notice that much difference between that, and just covering the inlet (minimum starting volume). The heart cut from those runs was similar to me. That was just my experience. But, it is an interesting thought none-the-less.

Could you describe the difference that you observed doing it this way? How was your heat up time? Did you feel you got less fores heads? Did it change/shift the flavor of the hearts you kept? Thanks!

[corene1]

I thought this might be an interesting addition. I pulled my thumper apart a while ago to clean it and noticed a discoloration pattern in it. If you look at it from the bottom up you can see the bottom shows where the liquid level builds to during warm up . Then the darker area is the level it stays at during the run, as the run progresses and the transfer of alcohol gets lower in ABV you can see it start to increase volume again. I can't prove this for a fact it is just my perception of the run. This thumper has probably 50 runs on it .

[thumper123]

Could you describe the difference that you observed doing it this way? How was your heat up time? Did you feel you got less fores heads? Did it change/shift the flavor of the hearts you kept? Thanks!

Your ideas on the subject were great! Thanks. I think I have more to consider before I understand the principles involved completely. But I got to where I am by trial and error. I initially wanted to up my proof for barreling because it wasn't where I wanted it to be wth just a pot still. I tried a too small "test" thumper then went with one that was too big, and it wouldn't heat up fast enough. I finally settled on the one I have now which is perfect - just right on liquid and quick heat-up. I can't say that I get less or more fores and heads. The hearts are good, and seem to hold at 145 proof forever. When that drops into tails it happens fast. This is with an 8% wash. I like the way I'm handling the fores and heads. When I'm done with them, and the hearts are savable, the condensate level in the thumper good.

I thought the bypass on the parrot is a great idea. I also saw a pic of a beautiful SS thump on the forum that had windings from the pot output around it to aid in heat-up.

I did not see a flavor change using the different thumpers, but it was much improved over the old straight pot still.

[rad14701]

Still no information as to what theory was supposedly behind that thumper size calculation... On paper I should have been a multimillionaire by now but, unfortunately, I'm not... So much for relying on calculations versus reality...

I've been entertaining the idea of running a 4 gallon thumper along with my 7.5 gallon boiler... Yes, 4 gallons, not 3 quarts... I'd only use it for rum runs and would not use it for any stripping runs...

By the way, whatever happened to DWhoDat in this topic...??? Been awful quiet...

[Usge]

Thanks for the info thumper123. I have 8 gal thump on a keg. If I only fill it to the downtube...it will heat up very quickly and start producing quickly. Part of that also, is how long your lynearm run is..and how much heat you can transfer easily (I use 2" pipes all the way through). Putting more in the thumper slows the heat up time and could eventually rag the run if it got bad enough.

The interesting part to me...is your comment that it holds at 72% for most of the run on a 8% wash. I've not seen this happen on "any" wash run...regardless of the size of the thumper (smaller or larger). I've got a year or more of excel run data...where I charted all the runs. Wash runs ramp the beginning and end proof wise...but they still fall steadily through the run. Its like it drops less at first...then drops steadily...then drops fast at the end. Running low-wines...there is enough alc in the pot to make it "stick" like you suggest. But, not running wash. Everybody who has ever posted run data here...shows the same thing. So, if you are holding 72% across the flat of your run on a wash...then there is something more too this that needs further investigating. Do you have any run data you could share on a wash run? Thanks!

[Brutal]

Starting with the thump dry would mean everything that the thump eventually contains is low wines. When I've run with a low wines charge in my thumper the run is flat as a board for almost the whole hearts cut. Depending on how fast you run this could be getting the some of the same effect.

[Usge]

While certainly within the realm of possible...I've personally never seen any run data to support that (running wash) despite having seen the claim made numerous times. Regardless of what you start with in the thumper (or not) there has to be enough alc coming over from the main pot to sustain it (feed it). And there just isn't enough alc volume from a 8-10% wash to do that (in my experience). It drops in abv too fast. Also, if you collect in very small lots, this can show less of a drop jar to jar. (ie., another variable to consider when looking at run data). The data I've seen from thump runs with wash...is marginally bit higher proof start than the pot might otherwise do...followed by the same linear downward line....dropping jar to jar...then a quick fall off at the end.

Running low-wines...typical run data might look like a quick drop at the top...then depending upon your collection volume per jar...would either hold within 1 or 2% for many jars...or it might drop 1% every couple/few jars...etc. over time...then drop off very dramatically at the end. That's regardless of what you start with in the thumper.

If you go back through the forums and pull all the data you can find for thumper runs with wash and/or low-wines...i think that's what you'd generally see. So, if there is something new here...with thumper123 setup and wash runs and the data he's getting...I'd sure like to explore it. I know others would too!

[Usge]

Just to kick this off...here's my old data from 2 thump runs: 8 gal pot/5gal charge, 2 gal thump keg:

Wash run, water in the thumper to the tube:
200ml fores
1 - 175ml 75-74%
2 - 175ml 74%
3 - 185ml 73%
4 - 150ml 72%
5 - 175ml 70%
6 - 175ml 69%
7 - 290ml 67%
8 - 300ml 64%
9 - 300ml 60%
10- 280ml 55%
11- 470ml 45%
12- 470ml 34% 210F (shut down)

And here's a run of 5 gal feints watered to 40% with water in the thumper:
250ml fores
1 - pint 84%
2 - pint 83%
3 - pint 83%
4 - pint 83%
5 - pint 83%
6 - pint 83%
7 - pint 83%
8 - pint 83%
9 - pint 83%
10- pint 82%
11- pint 82%
12- pint 81%
13- pint 80%
14- pint 78%
15- pint 75%
16- pint 72%
Flushed rest out from there down to 40%.

If I was to stretch out the wash run to 16 or more collection lots...with even smaller amounts...it might appear somewhat less of a drop than it did...or the following one.
-----------------

The next to runs were on my larger keg rig with 8 gal thumper:*
11.5 gals of 8.5% wash. Thumper with 1/2 gal water to the downtube :

1- quart 78%
2- quart 75%
3- quart 71%
4- quart 68%
5 - quart 62%
6 - quart 55%
7 - .5 qt 50%
8 - quart 40%
9 -.5 qt 38%;

-------------

11.5 gals of 8.5% wash. Thumper filled with 1/2 gal of fients to the downtube

1-quart 83%
2- quart 81%
3- quart 79%
4- quart 75%
5- .5 qt 74%
6- quart 65%
7- quart 55%
8- .3 qt 50%
9- quart 34%
10- .5 qt 25%

*These are not temp corrected, so actual points/% are a couple points lower across the board.

What I see from my own data is....if you want to really flatten the abv curve ...it's more important what you "start" with in the pot...than what you put into the thumper. And by that I mean..the abv of your still charge.

[Brutal]

I never document my runs the way you have. It's interesting to be able to look at it like that though. The run I was referring to I had low wines in the boiler too. It was from a barrel of ujssm that I had run and then combined to run again. it seemed to go on forever.

[OBX Phantom]

I have to agree with usage on this. While I don't have the documentation that usage has, I know from experience that stripping wash runs drops off steadily throughout the run while spirit runs will hold steady through the hearts of the run....

[corene1]

I have to agree with usage on this. While I don't have the documentation that usage has, I know from experience that stripping wash runs drops off steadily throughout the run while spirit runs will hold steady through the hearts of the run....

Have to agree , that is my experience also. Just a tidbit, My runs are very consistent with a 40% ABV low wines charge down to a 25% ABV low wines charge. At 40 % I hit right at 82% for most of the hearts run At 25% I hit 75% though out most of the hearts run . then a quick drop off with both.

[thumper123]

And there just isn't enough alc volume from a 8-10% wash to do that (in my experience).

Usge, am I missing something here? You say an 8% wash won't work, and yet your stats show pretty much what I'm experiencing.

[Usge]

Hey thumper123..I was basically addressing this statement:

the hearts are good, and seem to hold at 145 proof forever. When that drops into tails it happens fast. This is with an 8% wash

if you are experiencing what I'm experiencing...then you aren't running 72.5% flat through the middle of your run jar after jar on a wash still charge. (everything being relative of course) On a wash run, the proof falls every jar then tapers quickly off at the end. On a "low-wines" or higher proof run...you would see more of what you describe as a flattening in the middle...where is sustained a given proof (or close to it) for the hearts of the run. But, not on a wash run. That's what my data shows. That's been the experience of others I've seen here...although I've seen the claim many times that people get xx proof jar after jar, etc. on a wash run...which would indicate that they sustained proof like a low-wines run.

I was just wondering if you perhaps had a different experience/data than I did. Then the discussion might have gotten interesting as to your thumper/rig sizing and how you are running...ie., to figure out why you were getting low-wines like data curves running wash. It's all good . Sounds like it's working good! And shows that at least down to 25% size...things still work like they should.

[thumper123]

Everybody who has ever posted run data here...shows the same thing. So, if you are holding 72% across the flat of your run on a wash...then there is something more too this that needs further investigating. Do you have any run data you could share on a wash run? Thanks

You have me wondering now, but I'm sure of my facts. I have checked my alcoholmeter against store bought booze, and it's dead nuts. My hydrometer is a simple one that I use for wine with an alcohol percentage on the scale as well as brix and balling scales. I also use a vinometer for fermented wash readings. Both read 8% before and after fermentation.

Fores and early heads start at 75% at least on the few times I've checked them. I don't bother to put the alcoholmeter in the parrot since I dump them anyway. When things start tasting like I want, I swing the parrot over and the reading holds on 72% virtually forever. It WILL drop to 65% towards the very end of the run, and then down like a stone very quickly into the tails phase.

I have a 5 gallon pot with a 30" X 1 1/2" copper column with the upper half filled with copper srubbies. I never run more than 4 gallons of wash. My lynearm and all piping to and from the thump and through the condenser is 1/2" copper. My thump is SS 5qt. I run at 750 watts at a drip, drip speed - no stream. Pretty standard - but maybe not. Wish I could send a picture, but I haven't had much luck with that.

Sorry to say, I don't keep detailed records of my production, but maybe you see something here that I've missed.

[Usge]

Hey thanks for the info.

Yes...a few questions if you don't mind indulging me on this ?

What did you collect? How much heads, how much hearts...how much tails...how much total? Did you use jars/lots? Or just cut if off the worm? Anyway, your best recollection as to how much of each. And generally how you recall the alc readings went? Ie., just make numbers 1 to 10 or 1 to 12 and kind of fill it in with how you think the numbers went alc% wise.

The only real difference in your rig as you describe it and my old one is the 30" column with scrubber in it. However, given your starting numbers abv wise..and what we know about using packed columns on potstills without any additional reflux cooling...I'd say that off the top of my head...I'm not sure that would make much difference. Have you run that rig as straight potstill before? What were your numbers like. Also, when you ran the larger thumper...and smaller one than you currently have...you said they didn't work as well. Could you describe the differences? Was there anything about your rig that was different at that time? Or your run procedures? What impact did it have on your runs as you recall?

As to your run procedures...you've got a bit more detail there to work with. Most people run about 1200-1500W on a spirit run. Most thumper runs are done with a double/twist small stream. So, you are running about 1/2 the watts and dripping off the run would certainly be a variable here. I "do" drip off my fores...but as soon as it starts to clean up, I push it up to it just breaks a stream and let it ride. I think this is more common as a run procedure (but that wouldn't make it right or wrong...just a difference). Starting with nothing in the thumper is more indicative of using it as a "slobber box" than a thumper (where you would use it to catch any puke coming from the pot from running hot/hard...so as not to ruin your run). But, it none-the-less remains a variable.

As far as I can see...your starting abv numbers aren't any different than mine. So, I can't really see any indication of additional reflux or benefit from any of this thus far that might explain anything. But, with some more run/volume information/detail from you...I might be able to put together some data that could start to point at where the differences are. Thanks!!

[Usge]

btw...here's the beginning of my quest with thumpers which began nearly 5 years ago. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=16203 . I subsequently built my last rig...based off of those experiences.

Here's some chart data. Total collected run volume was 1.75 gals - 1.875 gals (not counting fores) off 11.5-12 gals of 8% wash with different thumper fills. So you can see the results clearly.

One Note..on the wash/wash run...there was also "corn" added to the thumper run for flavoring. This caused the thumper to take longer to heat up and come on line...you can see the results here in the lower starting abv...despite the collected volume being higher than the water run.

You can see the different bend influences in the curve by the different starting thumper contents...but overall...the line trend is still definitely...positively...downwards....regardless of what you start with in the thumper.

Lets compare that with this run...which was on 4.5 gals of "low-wines" run on a potstill . (the red marks are the jars I kept for the tennative cut).

[mepete]

But suppose you've already done a strip run and you are charging the boiler with 40% spirits. Then 5 x .40 = 2 gallons, say 2-1/2 to be safe. Which is what has been suggested as the safe size thumper to run here.+

A thumper is a tank that collects vapors from your boiler, and condenses them to a liquid. The percent alcohol in your boiler contents has very little effect. Except for the fact that the difference in the ratio of mixtures will have a different point of vaporization. This is too small to sweat. The volume in the thumper will increase until the contents begin to vaporize again. This is why you need to be concerned with capacity. Until the thumper contents reaches the temperature of vaporization you are adding to the contents. Once the temperature has increased much of the alcohol will pass through and your liquid level in the thumper will increase at a much slower rate. Higher the percent alcohol slower the rate. The purpose of a thumper is to allow the water and alcohol molecules that have been traveling together to have time (temperature change) to disassociate, vaporize and regroup with their own kind and go to the condenser. A small thumper will have less space for this to happen and may become full before you finish your run. One thing is for sure a thumper made of metal will not break.

[W Pappy]

I will stand by this only a fool will run a thumper made of glass!! Dont care if it worked the first time or after run 100.
101 can burn your ass. I recommend a thumper no less than 1/5 the size of boiler to equal size just my recommendations.
Any one willing to argue the use of a glass thumper or boiler cant and will not except common sense advise.

[rad14701]

mepete, I'd really like to know where you come up with your assumptions... We know how thumpers work... We understand the theory... One major component of thumpers that appears to evade you is the fact that there is a definite correlation between the amount of liquid in the thumper in comparison to the amount of vapor space, both of which are effected by ambient temperature outside the thumper... A finely tuned thumper benefits not only from these components but also from the amount of parasitic reflux that occurs within the vapor chamber volume... You don't for a minute think that once the vapor rises through the fluid bed that it simply travels out of the thumper to the product condenser do you...??? There is reflux taking place in there throughout the run, albeit in varying proportions... Heck, that's how thumpers auto-fill after all... A thumper is not just something you place inline based on some percentage pulled out of thin air... Tell us what you know, not what you've read...

[thumper123]

Yes...a few questions if you don't mind indulging me on this ?

Usge, I think you have picked up on a discrepancy of which I was unaware, namely heat and the resulting speed. I used my technique with the pot still I ran with good results (except for the proof), and saw no need to change it with the addition of a thumper. I think it's entirely possible that this might be contributing to my "higher than normal?" readings. I don't do a low wines run. I do a single run. I also am pretty sure that there are guys out there that get similar proof readings doing just what I do. Guys?

I sorry to say that I don't keep records of individual cuts by measured amounts, so I guess I fall under option C - I cut off the worm. The following is an approximation. I use my palate continuously, and rely on it as my primary tool. I throw out around 8oz. of fores and early heads then I swing the parrot over and collect AROUND 1 quart and one cup of hearts with the aforementioned results. I take tails rather high at AROUND 50% down to 35%abv. Not scientific data by any means, but it serves me well. Thanks for all your input.

[Usge]

Thanks thumper. Fine to cut off the worm, etc. So, nothing to argue with about that.

My guess is...that because you aren't collecting in lots, nor keeping data...that this is simply a difference of understanding/interpretation of what your results are...not something new. It's hard to do a lot of things through the internet. But, I can help you here with some of the data to see if we can glean more from this.

You say you started with 4 gals wash ...converted to ml that's 15142mL. x .08 (8%) = 1211.36ml of alc potential (at 100%). Correcting that for volume since you won't be collecting at 100% purity (AROUND) 1,514m TOTAL.

You took "around" 8oz fores/heads — (235.6 ml). 1qt + 1 cup hearts — (1183ml or 1.18 liters). Tails from 50% down to 35% (no volume given). When we add what you remember collecting up we get...1418.6ml. Subtract this from the estimated TOTAL vol of 1,514ml and we get 95.4 to 100ml for the tails. That sound about right?.

So, from what you said before...about the time things clean up (taste right) you swing the parrot over..and it fills and then it reads 72%. You said it reads 72% steadily then trails off right before tails ...in this case from 72% to 50% ....then tails fall like a rock. So, lets take a little deeper look now.

Assuming your parrot holds avg 150ml (some less, some a little more), this would mean that your parrot filled (About) (1183/150 = 7.89) times through hearts and dropped (at some point) from 72% down to 50% during that time. We should also remember, that the parrot is blending what's coming in in lots of 150ml or so....ie., by the time you are reading 50% on the parrot...the proof of what is coming over is probably 10-15% lower than that.

Given all that..the only other thing I could say would be...you have an incredibly wide cut (barely any heads or tails cut volume wise). So, out of that which came out that you kept...(hearts) about how much of it would you say stayed at 72% reading before it dropped down to 50%? Half of it? Most of it? Personally, since you aren't keeping any data, etc...about your runs...I think you are actually seeing the same thing everybody else is....(which is that it falls off pretty much linearly on a wash run)...it's just you aren't noticing it the same because of the way you are collecting/cutting. But, I'm always open to something new. If you are contending that you collected close to 1 liter at a steady 72% out of a 1.5 liter run of wash....I'd say absolutely...that claim would be highly unusual. I don't think you are going to find anyone to confirm that for you. I'd be really surprised anyway.

I'd like to investigate this further...but I really can't without more data. Maybe next time...just use a case of mason jars...and collect same amount in each one...(about 200ml) and see what reading you have at the parrot as you take each jar....write it down. That would be really interesting. If you show 72% running across the flat ....I'll be very surprised. (and excited) that we may have something new here

[shadylane]

"How to determine thumper size?"
My advise it to build more than one thumper.
A small one that's less than 1/5 the boiler charge will be prone to flooding.
But if you elevate it, add a downcomer back to the boiler and reflux, it becomes a single plate.
A thumper that's equal in size to the boiler can be used as a steamer still.
The thumper sizes between these two extremes are Ok also.

[thumper123]

So, from what you said before...about the time things clean up (taste right) you swing the parrot over..and it fills and then it reads 72%. You said it reads 72% steadily then trails off right before tails ...in this case from 72% to 50% ....then tails fall like a rock. So, lets take a little deeper look now.

Your mathematical genius is impressive, Usge. I would say that I collect a little more than 100ml of tails. I'm dumping the parrot after the hearts, when my taste tells me to. I let the parrot fill again, and collect a little a besides that on the tails run. So all in all your estimates are incredibly accurate.

I think you got the answer in the blending at the parrot. I looks steadier than it really is. I've been missing the obvious.

At any rate, that quart and a cup (40oz.) is very good flavorwise and proofwise. It's all good for the barrel at about 65%abv.

Thank you for your patience and clarification.

[Usge]

Thanks. And no worries. Yes, I normally use a slightly higher adjustment for volume than I used for yours. Had you been holding proof through most of the middle at around a sustained 72% , the overall volume of your run would have been lower and your tails collection would have been closer 100ml. So, by confirming that my tails prediction was under, this also confirms that the overall volume was more than I calculated (since we already know what the over values were)...and hence...the proof was lower, or falling more, through the flat of the run. But, I have to say I'm rather disappointed as well that this didn't turn out to be a real confirmation of a flat curve through hearts on a thumper wash run. . I've been looking for one for many years.

[thumper123]

mepete, you've hit it right on the head. A more concise explanation there could not be. It's all pretty simple, no matter what anybody tells you. No big mystery for anyone who has run a still.

[SherrodBrown]

I know glass is bad. Glass means trouble. But I saw a beautiful one on a Youtube Video
"Glass Thumper Gin Run"
First of all it looks great. For a poor moonshiner with a small budget it comes natural
that you'd wanna have something to match all those fancy and transparent reflux columns.
So to me it means a lot to be able to see what is actually going on inside. It's part of why I'm doing this in the first place.
I can imagine to expand the project with a cutting snoot for foreshots and maybe some led aquarium lights behind.

When it comes to thumper content a high starting ABV might perhaps postpone the movments in general. Maybe just maybe a planned cut can be made later? or you'll find out anyway by tasting the jars
A too big thumber might steal heat but again that wouldn't be a problem with glass since it's insulating.
A too small thumber would perhap mix the steam bad and move over too much water...maybe it's bad for ABV gains?