Making cuts is an art and my artwork is like a crayon coloring book going over the lines.
On a spirit run finding the point where the heart stops and tails begin is my biggest problem. I'm smearing into tails but then I also like the flavor. So what is the rule? I know temp isn't in play so it has to be ABV.
I think I have the heads and I am going by taste and smell. Is that bad? Getting used to a non thumper pot is a learning curve for me right now.
In a perfect world you could use temperature and abv. Since it's not you need to get used to taste smell feel for keeping the colors within the lines.
My Grandpa used to say. Don't argue with an idiot, because he will just drag you down to his level then beat you with experience.
He also used to say. I didn't say it was your fault. I just said that I was blaming you.
okie wrote:On a spirit run finding the point where the heart stops and tails begin is my biggest problem. I'm smearing into tails but then I also like the flavor. So what is the rule?
The rule is " there is no rule." It is, as you say, an art. If you like it, keep it.
Thanks a lot. I'm trying to get used to a new baby and she is 3" and is fast Sally Run. I ran it as low on the heat as I could so I'm starting to learn this baby more.
Never try to argue or reason with idiots and morons, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
The step up to 3" overwhelmed me a few runs. But the trick for me is, save in small containers and sort it out by taste later. then blend the stuff you like back to the hearts for taste.
I don't use a big container even when I know I just started a gallon of hearts.
In the same boat, I'm still learning where best to make my cuts on Birdwatchers at the moment but I have just done a run of Odins Cornflake whiskey and I think it's going to be quite a steep learning curve when I start on blending it tomorrow.
I'm guilty of not collecting in smaller containers. That is my next move, then blend. What I do is collect is a small container, then pour it in a large one after smell and taste.
Never try to argue or reason with idiots and morons, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
okie wrote:Another question, so lets start with ABV. Where does tails begin? Is it like 30-25 or 20% ABV? I know it has to be close to that area.
I usually watch out for when the run starts to get a 'oily' appearance on the surface of the distillate (like tiny circles of oil) but I usually only go to 30% before stopping. Tails taste fairly rough but I don't really have enough experience to really discern the smell of them yet, although I can get the silage/grassy smell at the very end of a run.
There's no rules, but there's definitely guidelines. If youre trying to make neutral on a potstill making cuts is easy. Just run it 2-3 times and ditch everything to the feints jug that doesnt taste like the middle cut of the hearts.
Here's where it gets interesting tho, if youre aging an AG on oak, some heads and tails are necessary, or your whiskey will have no character. The headsy bite and the cardboardy tails flavors both disappear in a few months and blend with the oak caramelly vanilla sweetness into a whiskey that will make you smile. The more heads and tails, the longer you need to age. How much to include is impossible to describe with words on a forum. Trial and error my friend.
Usge said something earlier today that was absolutely brilliant, he said "...I like my women and whiskey dirty". I couldnt agree more. I like a lot of character in my hooch, so my cuts will be different than someone who likes JD which is charcoal filtered bland tasting but smooth. I call it oaked neutral. All depends what youre after.
okie wrote:Another question, so lets start with ABV. Where does tails begin? Is it like 30-25 or 20% ABV? I know it has to be close to that area.
I usually watch out for when the run starts to get a 'oily' appearance on the surface of the distillate (like tiny circles of oil) but I usually only go to 30% before stopping. Tails taste fairly rough but I don't really have enough experience to really discern the smell of them yet, although I can get the silage/grassy smell at the very end of a run.
Tails smells more like smelly feet or wet dog. My wife even mentions it smells like yeast too.
Heads smells sweet because of the acetone. If you have a can of acetone open it up and smell it. Now that you know what pure acetone smells like you'll be able to smell it easily in your heads jars.
Now all that said, late heads can add a bit of taste if you add it to your hearts jars. But never add early or mid heads... headache city!
Early tails can also be okay, but be careful - that wet dog/smelly feet from tails can overpower your hearts if you mix too much and it'll stink.
I find that it's really hard to smell the differences in the late heads / early hearts and early tails / late hearts when it first comes out of the still. You need to let the jars sit for at least 6 hours and then the "biting smells" calm down as some volatile chemicals evaporate and you can smell the differences much better.
Jimbo wrote:There's no rules, but there's definitely guidelines. If youre trying to make neutral on a potstill making cuts is easy. Just run it 2-3 times and ditch everything to the feints jug that doesnt taste like the middle cut of the hearts.
Here's where it gets interesting tho, if youre aging an AG on oak, some heads and tails are necessary, or your whiskey will have no character. The headsy bite and the cardboardy tails flavors both disappear in a few months and blend with the oak caramelly vanilla sweetness into a whiskey that will make you smile. The more heads and tails, the longer you need to age. How much to include is impossible to describe with words on a forum. Trial and error my friend.
Usge said something earlier today that was absolutely brilliant, he said "...I like my women and whiskey dirty". I couldnt agree more. I like a lot of character in my hooch, so my cuts will be different than someone who likes JD which is charcoal filtered bland tasting but smooth. I call it oaked neutral. All depends what youre after.
This is what I needed. I was thinking I could fudge if I was ageing on oak. Thanks a lot.
Never try to argue or reason with idiots and morons, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
You asked. Bear in mind this can only ever be a generic guide and indeed different recipes are completely different. I use this as a guide to the general region for the cuts and use smaller containers around these points.
There are many ways to do this, but for me this is convenient. I use a combination of vapour temperature (at the high point in the still) and ABV - not to make the cuts directly, but as advanced warning to indicate the zones.
Discard anything up to 77 deg C as foreshots.
From there to 75% ABV is going to be heads.
Hearts lasts until either 65% ABV or 55% ABV dependent on the recipe.
I then collect tails to a vapour temp of 98 deg C. There is still some alcohol in the boiler but for me it is not worth the energy expense to get it out. It is cheaper just to ferment another batch.
I prefer to take a conservative hearts cut and relegate everything else to the feints jug. It is not wasted as I use this to feed a reflux column to produce a neutral base alcohol for other uses.
Youre welcome. From my Single malt recipe in my sig.... "Yield from 40 lbs (18kg) malt is about 2.6 gallons (10l) 60% (avg) before cuts. Do your cuts to your taste preference. I get about 1.4 gallons (5.3l) 67%, after cuts"
For what its worth. Gives you 1 data point at least. All our tastebuds are differnet tho.
Edit: Note thats from a double run. So essentially 50%-55% by volume of my spirit run is my keep. I always seem to fall in that zone.
thatguy1 wrote:
I find that it's really hard to smell the differences in the late heads / early hearts and early tails / late hearts when it first comes out of the still. You need to let the jars sit for at least 6 hours and then the "biting smells" calm down as some volatile chemicals evaporate and you can smell the differences much better.
I usually give my stuff 24 hours but it's still a bit of a bitch to make cuts, hey ho, I'm still learning, give me another ten years and I'm sure I will be making some excellent product
Can anyone give me an idea where the cuts would be on this run, I know one has to taste and smell but if I could get some input based on the jar number and proof. BTW each jar has 300 ml and last jar was 40 proof, numbers are proof not ABV, first 250 ml was discarded as foreshot. This was a first run but wondering how much hearts are there. Thanks in advance for any information
Fred
Did you read this thread at all or just post the same question. I answered your question 2 posts down. Its a ballpark. Again, If you keep 55-60% of the middle, for me slanted toward the front, youre doing fine. Everyones tastes are different tho. And you didnt say what you made either. Which also plays in.
Lots of folks here making UJSSM. Maybe they can chime in and tell you what they do for cuts on their runs. If you go back and forth with your nose a few times youll start to pick out the differenet characters. If you want to drink it right away, white, your cuts will be much tigheter to the middle. If youre gonna age it up on some oak go a little wider on the cuts, and after a few months the wider cuts will add character and flavor. Good luck. If that was your first run, congrats on a nice 3 liter first run. Cheers.
I ran 6 5gal strip runs.
Took the strip run and watered it down to 30%abv
Then I did a spirit run (discarding about 1ltr foreshots).
If I decide to run this back through a cpl more times, will I still get fore shots every time, or because I dumped them on first spirit run, are they no longer there?
Odinson88 wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 6:15 pm....will I still get fore shots every time, or because I dumped them on first spirit run, are they no longer there?
Question is....will you still get a “heads cut”? And the answer is, yes.
Rerunning over and over will clean up the hearts better, but where does the “bad stuff” go? It tends to push the higher volatiles to the front and the fusels towards the backend. Obviously, the portions of the heads and tails diminish with each successive run, but there will still be some there and if recombined with the hearts cut, the successive run is just a waste of energy.
ss
Odinson88 wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 6:15 pm....will I still get fore shots every time, or because I dumped them on first spirit run, are they no longer there?
Question is....will you still get a “heads cut”? And the answer is, yes.
Rerunning over and over will clean up the hearts better, but where does the “bad stuff” go? It tends to push the higher volatiles to the front and the fusels towards the backend. Obviously, the portions of the heads and tails diminish with each successive run, but there will still be some there and if recombined with the hearts cut, the successive run is just a waste of energy.
ss
so do you think that cuttig 250ml (1/4 qrt) from top and bottom of each spirit run would be good enough to get a good 3rd run product and still have volume of decent palatable liquor?
It’s not a magic number . A third middle cut is an approximation that roughly covers many bases but is .... an approximation ...
Each fermentation is different and each distillers tastes are different . So many variables .
At the end of the day , numbers mean nothing and what tastes good does .
