Stripping Run in a Potstill w/ a Parrot...

Simple pot still distillation and construction with or without a thumper.

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evilpsych
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Stripping Run in a Potstill w/ a Parrot...

Post by evilpsych » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:12 pm

Alright, Q. for you Parrot Users also operating a potstill by 'feel'

When doing a stripping run - i.e. 'low-wines' for a second run later at higher proof, at what proof read at the parrot do ya'll call it off with that particular batch of wash? My batches started out pulling off 50-40%, but towards the end, were pulling off very weak 20%, with very little bad-taste.

Would you go further than that? I don't think I was into the 'tails' all that badly due to taste, but i was getting a little cloudiness in the jug.


The second run came off starting at 80%, I stopped the second run at 50%, will rerun the leftovers in another stripping run.

The way my pot is currently setup, there is no thermometer.

pintoshine
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Post by pintoshine » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:57 pm

you are running about the way I do.
The cloudiness you are speaking of is common at about 40% abv. From 30 on down it sometimes goes away.
I always check by watering the spirit down to about 30% anyway. The water opens up the bouquet of some of the water soluble fragrances and will cause a particular heavy fusel oil tails to louche. I have learned that sometimes, especially with brandy, there is a part around 40 to 45% that is particular nasty but 40 to 30% is quite tasty and carries the fruit flavors over.

Now I benefit from running a doubler on both my stripping and finishing pots. I get a bit sharper distinction in the tails because of the non-lineararity of the run on the doubling run. But I think the conclusion that few will tell you is that there are distinct parts of the spirit that can be utilized and the best success is through knowing how to blend the appropriate parts.
For instance, pugidog has just discovered where the rum oils are. Buy using the appropriate parts in subsequent distillations, he is able bring out the buttery rum flavor that is the distinction of a Jamaican Rum. It is the flavor that makes a really good bread pudding great when there is a really good butter rum sauce.

When I am teaching blending, I always task the distiller to collect the entire run in small containers and fill each with the same amount. Taste test each part. You may not like the flavor of the part that comes over at 42% but when added to the part that came over at 56% it is complimentary. My uncle Leo's corn and malt whiskey had a very dish water taste around 42%. He would toss that and wouldn't even keep it for tails. He would add the rest from 41 down to 30 because he said that is the "sweet corn" flavor that makes the oak sing. So depending on wha you are making different parts may be better than others.
I have had wheat germ running the second time coming over almost flavorless like vodka up around 82%, bu the flavor starts kicking in around 55% real nice. By the time it gets to 45% it starts tasting like white dog. It is one that I can keep the whole run down to 45% but not below because of the oil content. It can have really cloudy tails. Now I have had a lot of runs of corn and barley malt have a habit of turning blue at around 40% I don't now exactly why but I know it is copper sulfate coming over. Something in the tails reacts badly with the copper in the condenser. It is just something I expect.

So you see there is no simple answer and it takes a lot of experimentation. Small containers, louche and flavor test with water, and careful blending is where the art is.

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Post by theholymackerel » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:59 pm

Strippin' Run: Run it fairly quickly. Collect EVERYTHIN', makin' no cuts till the output drops to 20% or less.

Spirit Run: Run it soft and slow. Collect and discard foreshots. (200 ml per 5 gallons of mash/wash with a potstill.) Run still slowly and steady. In a 15 gallon, or smaller potstill a good rate is a tiny stream... pencil lead sized. Make yer cuts based on smell and taste. Heads and tails can be saved or recycled. My cut from body to tails is often in the 40-50% abv range.







I wish ya luck.

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Post by HookLine » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:30 pm

Pinto, that is one of the most informative and useful comments I have read on this forum.

Much thanks.
Be safe.
Be discreet.
And have fun.

punkin
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Post by punkin » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:51 pm

pintoshine wrote:you are running about the way I do.
The cloudiness you are speaking of is common at about 40% abv. From 30 on down it sometimes goes away.
I always check by watering the spirit down to about 30% anyway. The water opens up the bouquet of some of the water soluble fragrances and will cause a particular heavy fusel oil tails to louche. I have learned that sometimes, especially with brandy, there is a part around 40 to 45% that is particular nasty but 40 to 30% is quite tasty and carries the fruit flavors over.

Now I benefit from running a doubler on both my stripping and finishing pots. I get a bit sharper distinction in the tails because of the non-lineararity of the run on the doubling run. But I think the conclusion that few will tell you is that there are distinct parts of the spirit that can be utilized and the best success is through knowing how to blend the appropriate parts.
For instance, pugidog has just discovered where the rum oils are. Buy using the appropriate parts in subsequent distillations, he is able bring out the buttery rum flavor that is the distinction of a Jamaican Rum. It is the flavor that makes a really good bread pudding great when there is a really good butter rum sauce.

When I am teaching blending, I always task the distiller to collect the entire run in small containers and fill each with the same amount. Taste test each part. You may not like the flavor of the part that comes over at 42% but when added to the part that came over at 56% it is complimentary. My uncle Leo's corn and malt whiskey had a very dish water taste around 42%. He would toss that and wouldn't even keep it for tails. He would add the rest from 41 down to 30 because he said that is the "sweet corn" flavor that makes the oak sing. So depending on wha you are making different parts may be better than others.
I have had wheat germ running the second time coming over almost flavorless like vodka up around 82%, bu the flavor starts kicking in around 55% real nice. By the time it gets to 45% it starts tasting like white dog. It is one that I can keep the whole run down to 45% but not below because of the oil content. It can have really cloudy tails. Now I have had a lot of runs of corn and barley malt have a habit of turning blue at around 40% I don't now exactly why but I know it is copper sulfate coming over. Something in the tails reacts badly with the copper in the condenser. It is just something I expect.

So you see there is no simple answer and it takes a lot of experimentation. Small containers, louche and flavor test with water, and careful blending is where the art is.

You rotten prick Pint. Just when i thought i knew the answer to this one and was gunna hit reply, i got to your post. :evil:

Then i realized i haven't got a damn clue whats goin on, and i'm just starting to learn some basics :roll:


Translate it to cooking and i'm boiling an egg. Long way from scrambled eggs (which by the way i'm just starting to understand).

I'm boilng a real good egg very well, but in the end, i'm a long way from an omelette. :cry:






ThankYouForTheRealityCheckPunkin

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Post by CoopsOz » Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:54 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm with you Punkin......so much more to learn. From this day forth you will only find me in the novice section.
It is most absurdly said, in popular language, of any man, that he is disguised in liquor; for, on the contrary, most men are disguised by sobriety. ~Thomas de Quincy, Confessions of an English Opium-Eater, 1856

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Post by pintoshine » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:50 am

No way you guys are becoming quite experienced. This tip of blending the parts for the desired flavors wasn't taught to me until about 5 years ago. You see I never understood what my uncle Leo was was trying to say back when I was a young man. It took a few years of building block for me to even be able to identify the parts much less select different parts for the desired flavor. This is one trick the master distillers at the commercial places don't let out often.
I tutored new_moonshiner, great fellow who is learning fast, to do a pure, no sugar added, grape juice run a few months back. I had him do the small portion exercise. I stepped him through all the parts watering and tasting each part and he was able to keep most everything he collected except for the deep tails, and I believe he blended a nice brandy.
Maybe your next DWWG or UJSM is a time to experiment. Punkin already knows the bad side affects of to much heads in the rum.

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Post by belialNZ » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:44 am

OMG Pinto!

That is great, My last batch I just collected into containers and took away some from the end and the start...

NEXT TIME I'm going to taste them ALL and see about these flavour transitions and see what kind of result I get.

Very informative post, thank you.

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Post by evilpsych » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:03 am

Yeah, thanks for the reply. very informative and eye opening. Got a current batch of my new slop running downstairs, should come off better than the last batch. The leftovers from this most recent pile I'm just gonna save up for a neutral run.

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Post by punkin » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:54 am

Punkin already knows the bad side affects of to much heads in the rum.

You got me?

Is this a cryptic clue or have you got me mixed up with someone else? :oops:

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Post by pintoshine » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:55 pm

I am truly sorry, I was confused as to who was trying to "Fix" their rum from including too much heads.
It ended up that violentblue gets the honors not punkin after all.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5946
Don't ask me how punkin came to mind, there wasn't even a post by him in that topic.
That is the reason I don't follow sports at all. I sound like a complete idiot asking questions such as "Did you see the touchdown pass by the guy in blue on Saturday?" And then all the questions come
"What was his name?" :oops:
"What team?" :oops:
"Where were they playing?" :oops:

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Post by RadicalEd1 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:07 pm

Hehehe, now all my friends look at me funny when I say I can taste too much heads in their "fine" vodka. I'm gonna drag them over while I do a run so they know what the heck I'm referring to. Even one session of running a still and tasting a few drops + water every few minutes is really enlightening on the relative quality of spirits.

Say Pinto, what size jars do you recommend we collect in? I know I have a bunch of 500ml's I use to collect, but filling one of those is like 1/3 my run :oops:. Well, that'll change once I get my new keg in operation :D.

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Post by pintoshine » Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:27 pm

When I started running a long time ago, I invested in the small measuring cup marked shot glasses. I still have a few of them.
Just kidding, I collected in them but I stored in baby food jars. They were plentiful. And if you need some pureed peaches or apricots they are fairly cheap. These are great jars for th small batch. Toss a shot in each if you are really small time, two if you are really rolling. When I am doing stripping, I generally collect in 750ml bottles.

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Post by punkin » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:56 pm

No worries mate, was just thinkin it was a pearl of wisdom i was spossed to figure out from my other problem. Then i remembered VB's thread and thought it was mistaken identity.

Then i thought it might still be aimed at me with the excuse of mistaken identity if i was too stupid to follow the hint.










ThenIWentAndLaidDownWithASoreHeadFromWonderingPunkin :lol:

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Post by rumbaba » Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:47 am

punkin wrote:
Punkin already knows the bad side affects of to much heads in the rum.

You got me?

Is this a cryptic clue or have you got me mixed up with someone else? :oops:
Dunno about you Punkin, but I am certainly well versed with the problem of too much heads. Definitely makes you more selective in your cuts. My first lot gave a hangover that would lay you up for the next day(much like Bundy) but the later stuff is smooth.

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Post by punkin » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:59 am

Yes, have added a little too much at times trying to save that bit extra. But in the end it just makes aging take longer.
Takes a while for the harshness to go if you've been a little greedy :lol:

evilpsych
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Post by evilpsych » Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:02 pm

wow. Not that long on the forum and already got a sticky! yay me. musta asked a q that wasn't answered in the parent site..... :rimshot: LOL

Anyway..

next set i'll do (a measly 4 gallons at a time in the boiler for a full 20 gallons) I'll run everything down to about 10-15%. Should be interesting for the second run...

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Post by blanikdog » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:02 am

Pinto, thank you so much for that reality check. Probably the most useful thing I have read, so far.


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Post by evilpsych » Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:39 pm

Just outta curiousity, considering the info in this thread.. anyone know where some major whiskey distilleries make their product draw from?? (I.E: Jim Beam only draws it between 56% and 45% or other such nonsense note- the Beam range is NOT factual.. just a example for the question..)

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Post by Dnderhead » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:01 pm

I thank you will fiend that most commersel distilleries run continues
reflux stills at 75-80% they run 24-7 and do not stop unless for repairs

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Post by evilpsych » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:45 am

ok, The continuous stripping run I can see, but they wouldn't do this for a final run would they? where do you think they make their final cuts from?

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Post by Husker » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:01 am

evilpsych wrote:ok, The continuous stripping run I can see, but they wouldn't do this for a final run would they? where do you think they make their final cuts from?
Most do use continuious.

I believe they do this by having multiple "true" boiling plates (we just compute "theoretical" plates when using packing). The takeoff from the very "top" plate is the heads. They simply remove from a plate lower than the top. Thus, they can introduce vapor into the column about 1/2 to 1/3 from the bottom. Out the bottom drains the water, at a specific plate level (somewhere lower than the top) they remove "product", and out the very tip top plate they remove the heads. Once everything is "stabilized", and a "stable" amount of proper temp vapor with the proper ABV is being introduced, then the still runs along in a very balanced manner.

However, a still like this can not separate nearly as good as a "true" batch run pot still, when run by someone who really KNOWS how to make proper cuts. It is one of the volume vs value trade off's.

H.

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Post by evilpsych » Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:54 am

hrmm.. ok i see...

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Post by pintoshine » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:50 am

Four Rose's under the direction of Jim Rutledge has swung back the other way. Since their departure from Seagrams in 2004, they have gone back to the true Artisan method of doing things. One small stripping column and one small pot still with careful cuts sets them a cut above the others I have seen.
And their pot still isn't one of those fancy Carl stills either. It resembles a pot straight out of Scotland.
09_four_roses_small.jpg
08_four_roses_small.jpg

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Post by Husker » Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:25 am

I guess "small" is in the eye of the beholder. If you read the sign, that one is rated at 12,000 per day (probably proof gallon, so it would be about 8000-9000 gallons of output if that is 130 proof to 150 proof).

Small, hmm........

H.

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Post by Rummeriffic » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:31 pm

Pint, is that really just the doubler??? as in the thumper, or is that the actual potstill?
I only have to do this until the trade embargo against Cuba is lifted!

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Post by wineo » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:42 pm

Boy could we have some fun running that! :lol:

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Post by pintoshine » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:46 am

That is just a pot still. They don't use a double or thumper.

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Re: Stripping Run in a Potstill w/ a Parrot...

Post by Dan Call » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:22 am

That looks like at least a 3000 gallon capacity. If this Vendome unit is any indication, I think large scale pot stills do use thumpers/vapour boxes, just look at this. Maybe this is a double thumper setup for rum distillation. Caption for this one says...."3000 and 5000 gallon pot still." The second picture is of a rectification collumn, like with plates, 92 ft long 13 1/2 feet across. How's that for capacity??!!! This thing could easily run 8-10 thousand gallons per day of finished product. Note lower left corner there's a dude standing there for comparison. This is proof (no pun intended) that commercial distillers are concerned with "quantity over quality," and that's why the clever home distiller and the small batch craft distiller can produce vastly superior product. I have to confess though, if I were going to run a legal distillery, this pot still arrangement is very attractive and the capacity is not so incredibly large that you can't control the quality.
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Re: Stripping Run in a Potstill w/ a Parrot...

Post by boingk » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:04 am

I'm about to run my first run of rum [second run ever :) ] in the next few days, and found something on the main site which I thought was interesting. Basically you allow one-third of the volume of the wash being distilled to be collected as follows:

Foreshots: 3.1%
Heads: 17.4%
Middlecut: 57.1%
Tails: 22.4%

The percentages pertain to the one-third measurement. Heads and tails [feints] are run through the still later or used in a doubler.

Does anyone use this formula and, if so, does it work out for you?

- boingk

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