Condenser on new pot still has failed!

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Asos21
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Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

Tested out my new DIY still this morning and the condenser failed spraying hot water everywhere!

As you can see in the image my Liebig condenser is made using 28mm copper pipe enclosed in a jacket of 32mm mdpe pipe.

I used JB weld to seal each end of the condenser jacket the 32mm pipe.

The end closest to the boiler failed and the JB weld came completely off! The other end closest to the output of the still is fine.

It seems that the JB weld did not hold up against the added heat and water pressure at the end of the condenser closest to the boiler.

The image explains this all far better.

I'm really struggling here trying to find a way to seal up both ends of my condenser.

They don't make standard 32mm end caps over here for MDPE pipe. The only end caps I can find don't look like they would be up to the job!
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

It was actually JB welds high heat and pressure steelstik that I used as well!
IMG_20211020_105138_500.jpg
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

The only end caps that I can find over here for 32mm MDPE pipe are these and they really don't look like they would hold!

Thought of possibly filling in the ends with silicone sealant? But again I don't know if it would handle the heat and pressure.
floplast-white-push-fit-waste-pipe-socket-plug-dia-32mm_5055149903311_01c.jpeg
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Yummyrum »

Seems like you’ve worked out your self . Don’t bother mixing copper and plastic .

Heat expansions are way different .

Get yourself a copper water jacket . Solder that thing . Forget about JB weld and all other dodgy fix’n ways …. You’re a distiller …. do it proper .
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:04 am Seems like you’ve worked out your self . Don’t bother mixing copper and plastic .

Heat expansions are way different .

Get yourself a copper water jacket . Solder that thing . Forget about JB weld and all other dodgy fix’n ways …. You’re a distiller …. do it proper .
Unfortunately for now the copper water jacket is out of the question.

The only copper pipe I could get which would fit over the 28mm would be 54mm and it's only available in 3m lengths.

I'd need to buy the 3m of pipe, new pipe cutter, silver solder and a new blow lamp plus flux.

I really don't have the 300 spare to do that right now.

I've seen plenty of builds and people using plastic condenser jackets so it must be possible.

Just not sure exactly how!

I do appreciate your advice and eventually I'll definitely be upgrading to a full copper setup when I can afford it!
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by still_stirrin »

Asos, you’ll learn.

Yummy gave you expert advice, “been there, done that” type of knowledge. If you choose to disregard it, then “good luck” and “stay safe”.

You’re not the first hobbiest who’s tried to mix materials in a still. And it rarely, if ever works out in the end. So, go ahead and continue down the “deadend path”. Eventually you understand what was said and why.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:58 am Asos, you’ll learn.

Yummy gave you expert advice, “been there, done that” type of knowledge. If you choose to disregard it, then “good luck” and “stay safe”.

You’re not the first hobbiest who’s tried to mix materials in a still. And it rarely, if ever works out in the end. So, go ahead and continue down the “deadend path”. Eventually you understand what was said and why.
ss

hint —> “buy once … cry once”
But plenty of people on here have PVC condensers that they report using for years without issue?

I'm not disregarding advice I'm simply stating a fact. Since other people successfully do it I'm not sure why it's not possible?
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by SmokyMtn »

Since you have limited funds. Worm in a bucket is simple and cheap
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Ben »

Epoxy in general wont handle shrink/stretch from heat. There are some flexible types made for boat building that might do it, but you would have to use them as a composite, as intended... maybe drill correct size cork and RTV it in? RTV itself might work, doesn't seem very good, worm in a bucket sounds good.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

SmokyMtn wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:22 am Since you have limited funds. Worm in a bucket is simple and cheap
I would happily do a worm in a bucket but the piping of the still and condenser copper is 28mm. Not sure how I would bend 28mm copper pipe into a coil!

Unfortunately as of right now I do have limited funds because I lost my job. Hoping something on that front comes along soon.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

Going to try using some weather proof highly flexible silicone sealant to seal up the ends of the condenser. Apparently it's flexible and is heat resistant up to 200+ c

The gap around the copper pipe and the plastic outer jacket is only 4mm so it's not exactly much space to fill!
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by still_stirrin »

Asos21 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:53 am… Unfortunately as of right now I do have limited funds because I lost my job. Hoping something on that front comes along soon.
Perhaps you’d be better off looking for and securing employment before digging too deep into this “hobby”. It WILL sink your money and time, both of which it seems you’re short of right now. I think your priorities might be off slightly, given your excuses.

Compromising the right toolset because of inadequacies is not the best (safest) path forward. Sorry for the “cold hard” facts.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by The Baker »

Asos21 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:53 am
SmokyMtn wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:22 am Since you have limited funds. Worm in a bucket is simple and cheap
I would happily do a worm in a bucket but the piping of the still and condenser copper is 28mm. Not sure how I would bend 28mm copper pipe into a coil!

Unfortunately as of right now I do have limited funds because I lost my job. Hoping something on that front comes along soon.
Not sure if the size of the pipe has any relevance to what is available, but:
you can buy ANNEALED (softened copper ready to work with) IN A COIL.
And probably lengths of it from the coil...

You don't need to BEND IT INTO A COIL.

Treat it gently, it can become work-hardened and you need to heat it (and let it cool) so you can work with it again.

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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by tiramisu »

I'm actually a little surprised that I don't see more people using PVC pipe as the outer shell for a condenser.
Something like silicone caulking once cured is flexible and good to 600F.
This seems like an extremely cheap and accessible way of making a condenser.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by NZChris »

A Liebig should be plumbed so that it isn't under pressure, control the flow in, not the flow out. A couple of mine leak at the top, but the siphon means they suck air, rather than leak water.

Using different materials means that the different rates of expansion will break hard joints, so do a good job of sealing the bottom end, but let the top end move and leak.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

The Baker wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:27 am
Asos21 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:53 am
SmokyMtn wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:22 am Since you have limited funds. Worm in a bucket is simple and cheap
I would happily do a worm in a bucket but the piping of the still and condenser copper is 28mm. Not sure how I would bend 28mm copper pipe into a coil!

Unfortunately as of right now I do have limited funds because I lost my job. Hoping something on that front comes along soon.
Not sure if the size of the pipe has any relevance to what is available, but:
you can buy ANNEALED (softened copper ready to work with) IN A COIL.
And probably lengths of it from the coil...

You don't need to BEND IT INTO A COIL.

Treat it gently, it can become work-hardened and you need to heat it (and let it cool) so you can work with it again.

Geoff
Unfortunately it kind of does. ANNEALED copper pipe in coils doesn't come in sizes over 22mm from what I can see.

The main reason for choosing the 28mm was for fast runs as its a stripping still.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

These look like a complete solution. Only problem is that I can't find one 28mm to 32mm.

Closest I can find is one which fits 30-32mm.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

NZChris wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:28 am A Liebig should be plumbed so that it isn't under pressure, control the flow in, not the flow out. A couple of mine leak at the top, but the siphon means they suck air, rather than leak water.

Using different materials means that the different rates of expansion will break hard joints, so do a good job of sealing the bottom end, but let the top end move and leak.
This feels like a game changer though. Because now I realize that I was pumping way to much water and pressure through the condenser. Literally when the top end began to leak it sprayed warm water across the room under serious pressure.

Only thing I'm thinking is that my Liebig isn't really on an angle.

What is the optimum angle for a Liebig condenser? Mine is on a very small decline downwards barely noticeable.

How do I actually create this suction where the top end just draws in air instead of leaking? Does the angle of the condenser matter or is it all a case of water flow?
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by LWTCS »

Modern household plumbing is under pressure.
Modern household (flow control) fixtures are installed at the discharge.
Same is true on the commercial side.
Same is true for steam.
Same is true for fire suppression.

Flow control on the discharge side is completely normal and should be easily capable of handling 30 to 80 psi.

If not, then put it on the entry side.....
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Sporacle »

I control at the inlet and do so because that is the simplest solution for me, basically 1 litre of water is 1 litre of water at 1 atmosphere or at 100psi. Angle your liebig so that the outlet is below the top of the water jacket and as Chris says the water flowing out will create a venturi and suck air in at the top, theoretically you could have the top of the liebig water jacket open as long as you can match the drain rate to the flow rate :D
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by NZChris »

Always place the tails pointing down, especially the top one, so that gravity isn't kinking your hoses. Place the top one as close as possible to the top so that there isn't a large, useless, airspace above the outlet. Unless your outlet tail is far too small, or your Liebig is too small requiring high flows, the water should drain into the outlet hose creating a siphon which creates negative pressure in the top.

I don't have a preferred angle. My first was very long and nearly horizontal and worked well enough at the time. I still use it on my preheater thirty years later. Plastic hose over copper. The inner is simply poked through the hose at the top. The leak slurps air, letting me know the water is running, or squirts water if Her Indoors parks the truck on the outlet hose.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Setsumi »

Asos21 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:35 pm
These look like a complete solution. Only problem is that I can't find one 28mm to 32mm.

Closest I can find is one which fits 30-32mm.
There is no need that the outer shell must be copper, you could use mild steel or stainless steel tube as outer shell and solder that. Or get a 15mm copper and a reducer and use your 28mm as outer shell. If it is long enough you will handle the strip rate just fine.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by elbono »

At least some of your difficulties are caused by the MDPE. Polyethylene is a notoriously difficult material to glue. Google "polyethylene glue" and you'll find stuff about plasma treatment, exotic two part glues, etc.

PVC "glue" is actually a solvent that dissolves the pieces, when the solvent dissipates the PVC solidifies and the pieces are welded together.

With PVC you'll still need to deal with thermal expansion but at least the pieces will stay stuck together.

Rubber couplings do look like they are a good solution. In the US the rubber couplings are often called Fernco's because Fernco makes a wide variety of them. You may have problems finding them in metric sizes though they are usually sized for US pipe. Here's their product range: https://www.fernco.com/products/flexibl ... -couplings
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by ThomasBrewer »

Asos21 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:35 pm
These look like a complete solution. Only problem is that I can't find one 28mm to 32mm.

Closest I can find is one which fits 30-32mm.
A couple dozen wraps of PTFE tape or a piece of rubber hose would easily build up the copper pipe to 30mm at the sealing point. Worm clamps cinch it all down tight.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by cob »

you have an 8 gallon pot. changing from 15mm to 28mm or 22mm.for that matter for a condenser either

liebig, or worm is not an upgrade that is to large of a vapor path for a condenser for that small of boiler.

I have read all your posts, you should too.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Yummyrum »

I agree with Cob . You’d be better with 1/2” or 3/4” for sure .
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:46 pm I agree with Cob . You’d be better with 1/2” or 3/4” for sure .
Okay but can you please tell me what is wrong with using 28mm on the 8g boiler? As in what harm will it actually do?

My understanding is that with 28mm pipe on the 8g pot I should be able to run it on a huge amount of power completing a 8g run in about 30-40 minutes? Opposed to the usual 3 to 4 hours. The whole goal of this still is for completing stripping runs.

Wider bore pipe equals more vapour. Or does it not work this way?

The condenser can more than handle the volume of vapour.

I ran it today on full power with a test run of water. The thermometer measures the vapour temperature. And it was showing close to 180 Celsius at the end of the run. Even at this temperature the condenser was more than efficient. Only about the first 4 inches of the condenser heated up. The rest of it was cold to the touch.

And from the test run with water today I'm pretty confident that the setup could easily complete an 8g run in under an hour.

Would definitely appreciate some input on the detrimental effects of the 28mm pipe on the 8g still though.
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by Asos21 »

And I did fix the leaking condenser today. The weatherproof silicone done the job and held up way better than the JB weld!

I'll be getting some silicone reducers to go over the joints just as an extra safety measure. And because they make everything look neat!

Appreciate all the help regarding my condenser thanks everyone!

Just a little concerned now because people are saying 28mm pipe is a bad idea ?

If it makes any difference the condenser is now 48 inches long and the water jacket is 36"
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Re: Condenser on new pot still has failed!

Post by ThomasBrewer »

I think folks are concerned that the pipe diameter is going to allow too much vapor to flow through without interacting with a condensing surface. Water is not a real good analog for testing purposes since it condenses easier. If you do find that you have problems, putting a little copper mesh/scrubby inside will increase surface area and turbulence.
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