Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

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Asos21
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Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Asos21 »

Listen guys, I know I can be a little stubborn and I often try to make things work that just won't work. But I do take all the advice from you guys on here. And based off that advice I've now scrapped the brass tank connector idea and bought a mapp torch and Silverflo 55 solder.

For anyone who isn't familiar with my build its an 8g pot with a stainless steel mixing bowl as a lid. I then have 15mm copper condenser tubing with a 28mm copper Liebig jacket. I was going to connect the 15mm condenser tubing directly to the boiler but now I've invested in brazing figured i may as well add a riser.

I'm looking to connect a 14" X 28mm copper pipe to my boiler lid as a riser. That will then have a 28mm to 15mm copper reducer which will be soldered on to link up with the condenser.

My biggest issue now is how to connect the 28mm copper pipe to the lid of the boiler. I know I need some sort of flange but I can't find anything when searching for 28mm copper flange.

I've looked at some of the flange build threads on here and I don't think I have the metal working skills or tools to make one.

Are their any copper fittings available which would act like a flange? Something that could be easily soldered to the lid.

Thanks guys!
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Sporacle »

You could do a 1 inch bulkhead to ferrule on the lid although inch ones might be hard to find. The other option would be to do a two inch SS bulkhead to ferrule, then reduce via copper fittings to your final size, so 2 inch SS bulkhead to ferrule, triclamp, 2 inch SS ferrule, (2 inch copper socket, Oz pipe is different) 50 to 25 copper reducer then your riser.
Another option would be to do the whole thing with a 1 inch SS bulkhead union, how this would marry up to your riser size I'm not sure, good.luck

Edit, the two inch will future proof you a bit as well
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NZChris »

Anneal the end and flare it with a ball pein hammer. A piece of wood with a hole drilled in it can be used for the anvil.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NormandieStill »

I'm with Sporacle on this one. Go for a 2" triclamp ferrule and adapt from there to your riser. That way when you decide to get into gin making and need to make some decent neutral, you're not having to pot still 3 or 4 times, and can attach a column onto your boiler. It's also easy to break down for cleaning and storage (which may help you to hide it away from nosy relatives / visitors).

When I first started out I was planning something like your build. A keg + bowl + flange. The flange would have been fabricated in SS and would have finished up costing more than the rest of the parts put together. Over time, and a lot of reading here, it morphed into where I'm at now. A keg which is increasingly bristling with 2" triclamp ferrules.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Dancing4dan »

Use a 2” ferrule and silver solder it to the bowl. Pretty simple. Then you can add on column or riser.

It’s easy to undo silver soldered joints and re use parts again in different configurations.

If cost is a problem anneal as described above. Nice to be able to disconnect the condenser from the lid though. Anneal and flair a 15 mm coupler, solder to bowl. Then make take apart joints with copper couplers using a flower and water seal.

Flower and water dough will stay soft where exposed to liquid or steam. Ends up cooking into what looks and feels like silicone where it is exposed to liquid or steam but without the toxins. It gets crispy where exposed to heat and air.

Flower and water dough gets bashed on occasion but it does work and is indispensable when you develop a leak mid run. I soldered a 4” ferrule to top of a SS keg. Developed a small leak mid run and flower dough got the run finished.
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EricTheRed
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by EricTheRed »

you can get 2" triclamp bulkhead adaptors - cut hole, mount - no soldering required
google
2" triclamp bulkhead
and you'll get lots of choices
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by still_stirrin »

Here, you could use something like this: https://minibrew.com/products/2-tc-comp ... ad-fitting
2” T/C bulkhead
2” T/C bulkhead
A clever solution for boiler building. But it might be a challenge to get the male portion inside if you don’t have access.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NormandieStill »

My issue with bulkhead fittings is the seals. You're going to want to do some wrapping with PTFE unless you want silicone in your vapour path. Also, they require you to have a larger opening somewhere along the line so at some point you're still going to have to solder something!

Edit: Except in your case you're fitting it to a bowl so you have full access. Buy yourself a bulk pack of PTFE tape and get wrapping!
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Asos21 »

Thanks all for the responses. Extremely informative and appreciated. My problems with doing the 2" Tri clamp bulkhead are that I'm not sure if I'm going to have the space to make the 15mm hole that I drilled in the mixing bowl lid to 2 inches. Because originally I thought it was going to be 15mm I put the hole pretty close to the edge to allow space for a ball valve and thermometer. I'll have a check tomorrow to see if I can actually make the hole 2 inches and still have space.

The second problem would be reducing the 2" fitting down to 15mm. If I was to use copper reducers they are seriously expensive in the 2 inch range and I'd need multiple as you can't go from 2 inches down to 15mm with a single reducer. At least I dont think you can.

I'll explore this idea further but my main concern is getting it reduced. A single 34mm to 28mm reducer is 29.99 and that's not in dollars! They get way more expensive at the 2" mark. I'm all for building something that I'm going to be proud of but the costs are stacking up quickly after buying the mapp torch as I gone for a good quality one!
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Asos21 »

NZChris wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:54 pm Anneal the end and flare it with a ball pein hammer. A piece of wood with a hole drilled in it can be used for the anvil.
If the whole 2 inch bulkhead doesn't happen then this is the next best thing I think.

Do you have any more clear instructions for a complete noob with metal working?

A video would be amazing but after searching YouTube and Google I can't find any clear instructions on flaring a copper pipe without flaring tools. And again them tools seem to be 100+ in cost.

Out of curiousity, it seems like a terrible idea but is their any reason why a 28mm copper pipe couldn't be soldered directly into the lid of the boiler without flaring?

Just brainstorming all possibilities here before I decide what's best to do! I want this to be well thought out for once so it's actually a success without going back to the drawing board!

Thanks
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by EricTheRed »

With the 2" bulkhead adaptor you will have growth options. Search for
Triclamp fittings
Lots of choices on reducers
Go modular, you won't regret it
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NZChris »

Asos21 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:03 pm Do you have any more clear instructions for a complete noob with metal working?
Heat the end to red hot then quench it in water.

Push it through the hole to the height you want then work around it with whatever suitable tools you have until it has a flare of about 45 degrees. Anneal it again to minimize the chance of splitting, then flatten it.

Doing this gives you a much larger soldered surface area of join that is much harder to break.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Asos21 »

NZChris wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:08 pm
Asos21 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:03 pm Do you have any more clear instructions for a complete noob with metal working?
Heat the end to red hot then quench it in water.

Push it through the hole to the height you want then work around it with whatever suitable tools you have until it has a flare of about 45 degrees. Anneal it again to minimize the chance of splitting, then flatten it.

Doing this gives you a much larger soldered surface area of join that is much harder to break.
Thank you that was exactly what I needed!

So I'm thinking anneal the end of the pipe then bend the edges outwards using pliers to a 45 degree angle. Anneal again then hammer flatten with the ball pein hammer.

Is their any better tools to use for getting the flare out to 45 degrees than pliers?

Thanks
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NormandieStill »

The ball pein hammer is already the best method. You need to make a mould (Piece of hard wood with an angled hole cut in it). I don't think you'll get very far with pliers.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Asos21 »

NormandieStill wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:05 am The ball pein hammer is already the best method. You need to make a mould (Piece of hard wood with an angled hole cut in it). I don't think you'll get very far with pliers.
Okay thank you! Regarding the mould I get the concept. The pipe goes into the mold then hammered down to create the flare.

I'm just not exactly sure about this angled hole. What's the best method to drill the angled hole? And what angle/shape does it have to be?

Was really hoping to get this done tomorrow but still a little confused about this mould!
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NormandieStill »

I would use a router with a 45° bit... but that's because I've got one. Basic flaring kits aren't too pricey here. Have a hunt around for something like this: https://www.leroymerlin.fr/produits/cha ... 67304.html

Depending on the radius of your hammer you might be able to get away without the mould if you tap carefully.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by still_stirrin »

Asos21 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:17 am… I'm just not exactly sure about this angled hole. What's the best method to drill the angled hole? And what angle/shape does it have to be?
Well, you could use a pocket knife and whittle it to shape. Or, you could use sandpaper to get it to the desired shape. Possibly, a large diameter drill bit with the angle of lead-in would work, but you’ll need to be precise with the drill so it doesn’t gouge the block of wood.

So, there are many possible solutions depending on your resourcefulness. You just need to use your “hat rack” to figure it out.
Asos21 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:17 am… Was really hoping to get this done tomorrow but still a little confused about this mould!
It’s a “form” for the flange you’re trying to hammer into the pipe. It shouldn’t be confusing unless you have the propensity for confusion. Make the shape for the exterior of the pipe and “pound it out”! Simple as that.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by ThomasBrewer »

Hi Asos.

An illustration of that wood mould and forming process is here:
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 17&t=57344

Here are some other ideas that might be easier for you:
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 46&t=27056
Last edited by ThomasBrewer on Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by ThomasBrewer »

Yet another option for flaring would be to find a butt weld reducer. Many have used them as "dimpling" tool (https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=45799), but a large one could be used as a flaring form with a hammer.
butt weld reducer.jpg
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Asos21 »

Thanks again everyone for the responses. I'm just at work currently but I'll read through all the latest posts and suggestions properly when I get home.

Just had an idea that came to mind.

How about using a 28mm copper solder ring coupler to create the flange? I could cut the coupler right at the top of the last solder ring (the circular flares going around the outside of the solder ring fittings). If I cut it right about that point I should be able to hammer that flat using just a hammer? Because the flare would already be in place.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NZChris »

You’re overthinking it. You only need a 45 degree mould if that is the finished shape you want.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Asos21 »

NZChris wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:18 am You’re overthinking it. You only need a 45 degree mould if that is the finished shape you want.
I'm just not getting how this mould can easily be created with a piece of hardwood.

If I carved a 45 degree cone in a piece of wood that would flare the pipe inwards which is not what we want. In order to get the pipe to flare outwards the mould would have to fit in the pipe. As in the cone would have to be inserted into the pipe. And I'm not sure how I would carve a 45 degree cone that would fit into the pipe with normal hand tools!

I really want to get this I'm just not getting this!
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NormandieStill »

You drill a hole the size of your pipe through the wood. Your pipe will pass through this hole. Then on one side you "open up" that hole to add a 45 degree cone (so the diameter is now wider than your pipe). Your pipe passes through the hole, coming out of the inverse cone side, you hold the pipe in place within the wood mold and hit it! You probably want to make the mold in two pieces (or cut it in two through the hole) otherwise you'll have to thread it all the way off your pipe which may or may not be feasible.

Then you re-anneal, flip your mold over to the flat side, and hammer your flare flat. Take a look at the link I posted, it shows a metal version of the same.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

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NormandieStill wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:54 am You drill a hole the size of your pipe through the wood. Your pipe will pass through this hole. Then on one side you "open up" that hole to add a 45 degree cone (so the diameter is now wider than your pipe). Your pipe passes through the hole, coming out of the inverse cone side, you hold the pipe in place within the wood mold and hit it! You probably want to make the mold in two pieces (or cut it in two through the hole) otherwise you'll have to thread it all the way off your pipe which may or may not be feasible.

Then you re-anneal, flip your mold over to the flat side, and hammer your flare flat. Take a look at the link I posted, it shows a metal version of the same.
Thanks for explaining this to me! I think I get it now! So basically i need a mould (wooden piece with a hole that pipe passes through). Then I need a second piece for the mould "the cone" which is placed inside the mould to flare out the pipe. Is this right?

Then this brings the next question. How do I create that second piece of the mould, the cone which is inserted into the pipe?

I did check the link you posted and I've looked for similar tools in my country but they are pretty hard to come by in 28mm. And they get significantly expensive in the 28mm range.

Honestly, do you think the idea of using a solder ring copper coupler and cutting it at the small flare then hammering it out wouldn't work?

Just not sure how I would make the cone that goes into the pipe. With actual hand tools!
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NormandieStill »

I would bother with the second part. Just use your hammer (carefully). Be prepared to cut off a few failed attempts.

The coupler might well work. If these are parts you can just pick up, then why not try it?
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NZChris »

All you need is a straight hole through a piece of hardwood. Poke the annealed pipe through however much you want, then flare it by tapping it with something out of your toolbox. I recommend not going all the way to flat because it work hardens and might split, so stop half way, re-anneal it, poke it back through the wood then continue trapping it flat.

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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by ThomasBrewer »

Asos- Check the links I posted above. You don't want a cone joint, you want a flattened end for more solderable contact. The 45-degree flare is just the first step towards hammering it all the way to 90-degrees.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

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NZChris wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:47 pm All you need is a straight hole through a piece of hardwood.
That's what worked for me. Flattened the end of a 2 inch coupling which was then riveted and soldered to the thumper lid. I think I heated it soft red at least 4 times during forming (ball peen and patience); when the copper doesn't want to work easy reheat it. You don't want to split it. It was my first metal working project and it came out well.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by Asos21 »

Well I got some 28mm copper pipe today and just experimented with it.

I didn't anneal whatsoever. I set it up in a mould and hit it pretty hard with a sledgehammer. Then I gently tapped it to make everything even with a small hammer.

I done both ends. Ones got a larger double flare that's the only difference.

The copper did not crack and it formed fairly well considering it wasn't annealed.

This was just supposed to be an experiment but honestly I would like to use this piece if it's safe to do so? I'll attach some pictures and for you all to give me your opinion.

I know it's not annealed but it's came out pretty good and hasn't cracked!

As you can see from the images the end which I probably flared a little to much has crimped the pipe a little at the edges, but the flange is still completely flat and not cracked. The other end I applied less pressure and only taken the flange to about 2mm all around this side did not crimp and is even.
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Re: Best fitting for connecting riser to boiler?

Post by NormandieStill »

Looking good there. I think I might use this technique to fit a drain to the bottom of my boiler. I'm bored of having to tip it up to finish emptying it!
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