4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:09 pm

Any thoughts on this from the experienced crew among you?

Re-plumb the rigid lines for the botanical basket in place and always leave it in the loop. I kind of like this option as it keeps me at the lower overall
height, keeps me with rigid plumbing for some structure, and keeps me at only one plumbing arrangement for simplicity.

Is this a fine idea, or is there some flaw in leaving an empty botanical section in line in my still all the time. I'm mostly interested in the dirtier spirits (rum 'n whiskey), and least interested in gin (for the moment), so I don't think it will get too much action.

I was also thinking I might add in an object (like a closed sphere, or better yet a 2" cylinder down the center of it) inside the botanical basket when it's not in use, so that the effective cross sectional area remains constant and avoids the sudden expansion (turbulent slow down) and then re-contraction (acceleration) of the vapor path.

Thinking to re-work the plumbing lines to support this configuration this weekend, so any quick advice is appreciated.

Cheers!
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:13 pm

DetroitDIY wrote:Hi Cede,
Picked mine up through McMaster-Carr, but I expect Grainger may have them as well. Lot's of diameter and thickness options... just a bit pricey. Here's the link: https://www.mcmaster.com/#8476k161/=1623nh0
2.25" diameter x 0.125" thick is was I'm using.

I was not referring to the glass by itself but to the copper trap adapter or whatever is the name of this part that supports the glass.
The largest I can find is 1.5".

That said, I can't help you with the gin basket, but I'm following as I think I might be in the same situation in the next few months as I'll begin my build too :)
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby Yummyrum » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:43 am

That still is going to look amazing and rigid cooling lines would top it off nice . :thumbup: I wanted rigid cooling lines on mine too after seeing them on a lot of builds ...... however I ended up with the stainless steal braided flexible lines because I am always trying new things and borrowing the PC for the pot still head etc .

If hieghts no issue I would leave the basket section in place and fill it with multiple parallel lengths of say 1/2" pipe . It will act as a catalyzer . You will find a Catalyzer section above the RC in most commercial stills .
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:31 am

cede wrote:I was not referring to the glass by itself but to the copper trap adapter or whatever is the name of this part that supports the glass.
The largest I can find is 1.5".


Got it Cede. You're the second one to ask me about these recently. Here's what I shared with the last member...

The part is a 'DWV, 2" Sweat Trap Adapter, C x Slip', made by Cello, a Canadian company. The page from their catalog is shown below. I used the WDSJ-32. When I contacted Cello, they wouldn't sell direct, but they gave me a list of distributors of their products in my state whom I called to find out who could get me these parts. I ended tracking them down in a town not too far from me and had them ship me a 10 ct. box which ran me $161.

Each "piece" has 3 parts, the Cu male part with the threads which I sanded to the radius of my 4" tube for soldering, the Br female part that will trap your sight glass against the male part, and a rubber gasket which I threw out. If you google this part, you will see different images that are a bit different than what was included for me.

Yummyrum - thanks for the feedback. I'm not familiar with a catalyzer, but I'll be looking it up shortly.
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Cello Catalog.jpg
Cello Catalog Excerpt (found on-line)
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:42 am

By the way Cede, if you do get these, then the lens info I gave you is valuable as those fit perfectly inside of these sight glasses. Here's the info again, and a source for natural cork if you go that way...

2.25" x 0.125" Borosilicate glass disks: https://www.mcmaster.com/#8476k161/=1623nh0

4" x 6" Natural Sheet Cork for the seals: http://www.ebay.com/itm/120896823721
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby Big Stogie » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:54 am

That’s some beautiful work, love to see it. I sent you a PM
Our work is nice cause we do it twice!!

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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:52 am

Thanks a lot DetroitDIY ! :)
Made in Canada, I live in Canada and not able to come across that !
I will check with them where I could grab some.

About catalyser, I guess he is talking about the copper catalysis of the sulphurs and others in the spirit.
http://whiskyscience.blogspot.ca/2014/10/copper.html

Thanks a lot.
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby zapata » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:56 pm

This is looking great!
One thing I'll mention on the packed column, not from experience mind you as I don't have a big column. Anyway, it always seemed to me that 4" is bigger than needed for the packed section on top of a flute. Packed columns and plated columns have different factors going dictating their diameter. For plates it's more a matter of geometry of the plates, but that doesn't really matter for the packed column above it. If you start from scratch and design a packed column to be fed with what comes out the top of a 4" flute, I think you'd probably find a 3" column more suitable. It should handle the power input, vapor speed etc, and also happens to be a better documented size for spp as well. Just a thought.
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:50 am

DetroitDIY what's the formula you used to draw the holes pattern ?
I got
X= Sqrt[n]*Cos(2*Pi*n*GoldenRatio)
Y= Sqrt[n]*Sin(2*Pi*n*GoldenRatio)

As base but I'd need to refine in for the number of holes I'll be using and the size of the plate
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:56 pm

I did a lot of figuring when I did the triangles, and designing in Adobe Illustrator. When I switched to "Golden Ratio" pattern, I just picked the patter off of the internet. Google "fibonacci sunflower pattern" and you'll find the fastest way to what you're after. I think the bigger key is to get the right open area for your plates. If I recall I targeted about 8%. Lot's of people were going for 3/16 holes but I chose 1/8 diameter. I scaled my Fibonacci arrangement until I got 314 (1/8th inch) holes (less the area dedicated to the downcomer), which was about 8%.

I think I loaded up a screen shot of the pattern I used early in this thread. The resolution is not so bad if you just want to copy it. Check out the posting from March 11, 2017.

All that said, there are other thoughts on perforation hole size and percentage of open area out there. I picked what I thought would be good, but I have yet to ever run it.

Good luck!
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:32 pm

Yes Fibonacci is just a sequence that can lead to the golden ratio :)
I saw your shot pages back.
Well I'll mess with that later, as I do not even have the materials planned for the flute and so many things going on.
Mathematics have always picked my curiosity as the whole universe seems to respond to mathematical formulae up to a point that some analysts believe at over 50% that we are in a simulation, but that's another subject :P

In my notes I have between 8-9% open area and hole size 1.5-2mm, so 1/16 or #50 bit but might be bigger.
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:52 pm

I’m pretty confident (more than 50%) that I’m not in a simulation. Used to love math, then three semesters of calculus kicked my butt :tired: and I learned to enjoy the applied sciences with light math trimmings. OK back to the task at hand…

Last weekend I laid out the system as designed to date to get a feel for the size/height. You can see this in my first image. This is what lead me to re-plumb the water lines and keep the botanical basket in the loop all the time to keep a simpler, lower total height system (as mentioned previously).

I’ve also included a shot of my parrot with the reinforcement added in (to prevent the inlet tube from bending relative to the main parrot tube. Just need some soft, inert, easily permeable material in the bottom to give the alcoholometer a soft landing, and to integrate the jar support shelf.

Made more headway on the botanical basket this afternoon, integrating a pressure relief circuit. First the pipe bender. I bought this to bend 180’s in a number of copper pipes for a different project. I asked the guys at my good local hardware store and they told me I couldn’t do it. Then I found this pipe bender tool on line… a bit pricy, but I had a lot to bend and my little rigged up bender failed miserably… immediate kink. The second image shows a 540 degree wrap I did (albeit with some difficulty). I do love that bender! Thought I may use that for the pressure relief, but ended up adjusting my design. All this is ½” tubing, but I’ve also bent ¾” with ease. It comes with fittings to bend up to 1” pipe. :D
Attachments
Assembly.jpg
Laid Out Assembly
Parrot 2.jpg
DetroitDIY Parrot
Pipe Bending (1).jpg
Pipe Bender
Pipe Bending (3).jpg
540+ Degrees!
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:56 pm

I ended up linking together 3 links that had a 90 degree bend on either end (essentially 3, 180 bends, but I separated the bends on either end of each piece to get a little extra height in the loop). The first image shows the unsoldered loop of the 3 links, connected by two Ts and terminated with two 90s. Next image shows it soldered together with lower 90 going into the lower, 2” Ø section of the botanical basket, and the upper 90 going into the top of the same, lower portion of the botanical basket. This upper 90 then takes another 90 to bend upright, with a little extension, terminated into ¾” elbow that is sheltered from the approaching vector of the distillate vapor. The last view is of the same, as welded lower half from another view.
Attachments
Botanical 2 (1).jpg
Dry Fit Pressure Blow Out Loop
Botanical 2 (2).jpg
Welded Botanical Basket
Botanical 2 (5).jpg
Another View
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:58 pm

The next 5 images show the botanical assembly from a few different angles to give you a good idea of the design. I have yet to add a ball valve on top (for filling) and on bottom (for draining). I’m also planning to incorporate a funnel on the top that is sized just right to hold the amount of water that the blow out loop wants to hold, so that I can fill the funnel to the top with the valve closed, then open it to perfectly fill the water plug without overflowing into the product stream.
Attachments
Botanical 2 (10).jpg
Botanical 2 (11).jpg
Botanical 2 (12).jpg
Botanical 2 (14).jpg
Botanical 2 (13).jpg
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:46 pm

Nice ;) Keep going !
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:37 pm

Working on the botanical filter screen, I picked up a 4” diameter stainless steel strainer from the store and snapped off the handle. It was actually a bit bigger than 4”, and to fit inside the botanical pipe, I had to sand down the perimeter a bit on the disk sander. It ended up needing enough sanding that the hem flange of the filter was sanded clean through and risked falling apart. As a result, I decided to solder the screen onto the sanded down flange. Unfortunately, as I tried to gently (with low flame on the torch) apply the solder, easily got the stainless screen to glowing red a couple of times. I’m a little worried I will have precipitated out the anti oxidizing element and it may rust… I may soak it in water and dry it out a time or two to test it.

After a few “over torching” failures, I switched to my soldering iron. That worked much better for the stainless screen. If I have killed it, I’ll re-make it without the torch and it should be OK.

My botanical basket opens in the middle with a tri-clamp and the flange is a smaller ID than the copper tube. Thus, I also needed to sand down two opposing sides of the stainless screen so that I could slip it sideways through the tri-clamp flange. I’ve made this so I can remove the screen. Not sure if this is valuable or not… You can just see the narrowed sides of the screen in the second image.

To hold the basket in place, a little above the cone contracting the 4” down to 2”, I decided to add in 8 little copper nubs. These were just short lengths of 12 AWG electrical wire. In the next image you can see 3 small holes (just larger than the copper wire) drilled into the basket wall. I drilled 3 here and on the opposite side where the screen will sit with the two trimmed tangent chords will be located (at the East and West sides if you will), and 1 hole on the basket perimeter for stability on each of the North and South sides of the basket. I measured the length that the wire nubs should be to soundly support the screen flange without including on the screen itself, marked the copper wires for these lengths, and bent them 90 degrees to control that they would insert to the right depth, hands free. You can see the holes, the bent wires, and the same wires inserted into the holes ready for soldering.
Attachments
Botanical Filter (3).jpg
Soldering Iron for Stainless Screen (No Torch)
Botanical Filter (4).jpg
Trimmed Screen to Fit in the Basket
Botanical Filter (5).jpg
Screen Support Holes
Botanical Filter (7).jpg
Screen Support Wire
Botanical Filter (8).jpg
Read for Soldering
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:39 pm

These next two images show the botanical support after pooling on an excessive amount of solder, and what it looked like cleaned up with a file and sand paper. And lastly, an image upside down (of the botanical basket output) with the screen in place, just above the contracting cone.

Just adding one more picture for the botanical basket (now the first image :econfused:). This last on is of the fill cup and valve (for inlet) of the blow out water loop on the botanicals. There is also a drain at the bottom of the loop... but I didn't include a picture. This loop has about 5" of water, which will be blown through (to below the basket, above the product condenser) if the column pressure builds up due to a plugged botanical basket.
Attachments
Coolant Replumb (16).jpg
Botanical Water Loop Fill Port
Botanical Filter (9).jpg
Soldered In
Botanical Filter (14).jpg
Cleaned Up
Botanical Filter (13).jpg
Screen Clearance to Basket Outlet
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:56 pm

So I had built rigid cooling plumbing into my rig as you’ve seen previously in this thread. However after building the botanical basket (a late addition) the initial plumbing didn’t work. And I decided to adopt ¾” tri-clamp flanges as I thought these would be more reliable. And I decided to have the bulk of the plumbing be separate so the two condensers didn’t have as much bulky plumbing hanging off of them.

The first image is of what I was starting with… the rigid plumbing that no longer connected with the botanical basket in the loop on the product condenser side, all of it with the main product lines carefully rotated for the front thermometers and to be facing reasonably normal, and the two lines to be reasonably level. The other item to note in this image is that I found my "falling" side of my still was leaning in too much towards my "rising" side of the column. To improve this condition, I shimmed the falling side from the rising side until they appeared parallel, and then applied a good amount of heat to some of the copper to stainless fittings at the top "U" part of the still to attempt to loosen then and allow them to re-solidify at a lower stress condition. This helped, but didn't completely fix the condition (as I found out later). The second image shows the same set up after having removed the old plumbing (except for the lines connecting directly to the condensers.

The third shot shows the tri-clamp assembly. I’m using ½” copper lines, but didn’t want to use ½” tri-clamps with them as the tri clamps ID at ½” is only 0.321” (that’s only 41% of the cross sectional area of the ½” copper). Instead, I picked up ¾” tri clamps (ID 0.574”) and soldered them into some ½” x ¾” copper reducers (these left me with a loose, but workable fitting between the SS tri clamp OD and the Cu fitting ID). I took my roughest file to the outside of the tri-clamps, which helps to improve the mechanical retention to the solder, as well as raise up some surface inconsistencies and effectively increase the OD just a bit to improve the fit to the copper fitting. That said, in this case, it still didn’t make for a great fit. To compensate for the too loose fit, and to force the stainless fittings to remain a little under inserted into the copper fittings, I packed in three very thin copper shaving “shims” between the SS and Cu to force an interference fit and control the relative position. The result was a large gap that needed to be filled by the solder, which was a bit of a trick, and probably blasphemy to the real plumbers on this forum. In this third image you can see the roughed up SS fittings, the Cu reducers, some short connections into an elbow. You can also see some of the copper shavings that I had saved from some of my previous drilling work (hammerd flat to work as the shims).

The next image is of one of these assemblies soldered up. I ended up having to file out a lot of solder near the flange so that my goopy (crappy) solder work didn’t preclude the clamp from engaging the tri-clamps properly. In some of the parts, I was actually filing away a decent amount of copper (where the tri clamp flanges were soldered too close to the copper fittings). The last image is of one of these pieced soldered into the product condenser.
Attachments
Coolant Replumb (1).jpg
Old Plumbing
Coolant Replumb (3).jpg
Old Plumbing Removed
Coolant Replumb (8).jpg
3/4" Stainless Connector Assembly
Coolant Replumb (11).jpg
Soldered Together
Coolant Replumb (7).jpg
And Installed
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:59 pm

These next two images show the rest of the rigid plumbing added in. The first image is of the connected assembly. The cooling inlet is at the bottom left in the image, feeding the inlet of the dephleg and the outlet of the product condenser. I was playing with my pipe bender making these. This inlet line was bent at an angle that make sure when I have only one plate in my rig (on top of the expansion nozzle) coming off the boiler keg, the cooling inlet will not have an interference fit to the rim of the keg. The outlet loop above assumes the same general slope (just aesthetics, no real function here). You’re looking at the back side of the system, so the valves are a bit difficult to see. There is a parallel path of a ball valve and a gate valve coming from the dephleg. I read some threads of people adding a parallel path with a needle valve for fine flow control of the dephleg. The needle valves I found were all very little opening, which I was afraid wouldn’t cover a sufficient range of flow, but appeared I might have finer control of flow than a ball valve. This is because a ball valve is quarter turn from full closed to full open, where as the gate valve is 4 turns from full closed to full open. The gate valve is at the beginning of the 180 degree bend coming off the dephleg, and the ball valve is on the straight. The outlet for the product condenser has a ball valve just before it joins the loop. This is yet another difference from my earlier design. I had indented to use a 3 way valve… because it seemed like a neat trick. But I think (hope?) I will like the greater independent adjustment of separate valves.

The second image shows the front side of those same connections, after having cleaned them up, and a couple of I/O fittings for the botanical loop that I was working on at the same time.
Attachments
Coolant Replumb (14).jpg
New Cooling Plumbed In
Coolant Replumb (17).jpg
Separate Pieces
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby cede » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:12 pm

Clap clap clap !
This is really beautifull and amazing !
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby Big Stogie » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:31 am

I saw some of this stuff in person he does amazing work! Can’t wait to see it run
Our work is nice cause we do it twice!!

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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:13 pm

Thanks Big Stogie. It's been a blast designing, building and stylizing it so far. I'll be excited for it to run too!

When you get your new rig built you'll have to send me an image of it.
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:33 pm

Continuing to work on the parrot…

I had a couple of extra 2” disks left over that I didn’t use as internal coolant baffles for my product condenser. I soldered a pair of them together to double the thickness, snipped the thicker circle nearly in half (keeping the larger piece), stamped a massage in it… “Detroit DIY still” on one side… “rasing spirits high” on the other… and soldered the onto the top of the inlet tube as it bends into the base of the parrot. I then bent a short length of ½” pipe and soldered it just above the parrot drain such that the pipe leveled out at horizontal, just a bit lower than the bottom of the half round. The outcome can be seen in the first image.

I’m heating the workshop with a nice little wood stove that cranks out the heat as I’m doing all this work (temp is ranging from -10 to -20 C here). I sorted through the wood pile to find the biggest complete round log I had, the sliced off a long diagonal slab on the band saw and ran it through the jointer and planer to level it out… image 2 is the slab feeding into the planer.

Next I cut off the back side, trimmed up the edges on a sander and drilled a hole near the back end the same diameter as my parrot base… image 3. Cut out the back end of the board to turn the hole into a slot, and then gouged out a trough in the underside to fit the ½” copper pipe I soldered onto the parrot… image 4. Image 5 shows the board fit onto the parrot. The copper pipe supports the board, the half disk above on the back side provides rotational stability along its axis and prevents the board for flipping out as a cantilever.
Attachments
Parrot Tray (1).jpg
Adding Shelf Support Components
Parrot Tray (3).jpg
Creating the Shelf
Parrot Tray (5).jpg
Sizing it for the Parrot
Parrot Tray (9).jpg
Carving the Bottom to Receive the Support
Parrot Tray (6).jpg
First Assembly
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:37 pm

I had to bend the horizontal pipe just a bit after working the wood, but ended up getting it nice and square to the parrot. ‘ll have to think about how best to strengthen it so that it doesn’t get bumped and bent more in the future… perhaps a little strut at the “crotch” of the support pipe for the shelf. The first image shows it getting squared up, and the second image shows it as installed onto the assembly. The height receives a quart mason jar comfortably. The wood finish is yet to come...
Attachments
Parrot Tray (7).jpg
Squaring up the Base
Parrot Tray (8).jpg
As Installed on the Still
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DetroitDIY » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:40 pm

Here are a few images of the assembly as it is to this point. The first image shows all the components… sankey keg boiler, 6 sieve plates, dephleg, the arch, botanical basket, product condenser, and parrot… plus the (unpacked) packed column set on the floor. The collection jar self hasn’t been added at this point. (Sorry about the busy background)

The second image is a profile view, with the parrot shelf peaking out the side. And the third image is a close up of the plumbing mess.  
Attachments
Assembly (1).jpg
Assembly Getting Close
Assembly (4).jpg
Profile Shot
Assembly (2).jpg
Plumbing Detail
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Re: 4th Triangle Flute Design & Build

Postby DSM Loki » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:21 pm

Beautiful work
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