Opinion on these specific packing

[Birrofilo]

I am waiting for my column to arrive by mail.
In the meanwhile, I am considering packing material.
It seems that in Italy nobody, and I mean nobody, sells copper mesh or SS mesh distillation-safe. One is left to wondering whether a certain packing material might relase nasties in the spirit. I would like to avoid making experiments on myself.

I isolated a couple interesting materials and I would like to collect opinions on those:

Rashig rings, €24,02 for 500 grams
https://www.amazon.it/dp/B077K8TPY1/?co ... _lig_dp_it" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
In comparison to other products, those look inexpensive. Shape is irregular but that should be no problem at all. The problem I have here is that I have no idea how much would I fill of my 2" column, which is circa 120 cm (47 inches) from kettle to dephlegmator (CM design). Should I buy more than one pack?

I tend to rule out SS mesh because I think the risk of getting some nasties is too high.

My idea is: a "roll" of copper mesh at the bottom (maybe 2?), and all the rest Rashig rings.

I also need some copper because my still is 100% SS.
I would like to know if this material is certainly adequate:
https://www.amazon.it/dp/B007VXF662/?co ... _lig_dp_it" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I am suspicious because it says "double layered" and it says it can be machine-washed not beyond 60°C.

I did not find anything which would look decently reliable.

I understand I can try the DIY starting from electric wire, but frankly I don't trust electric wires as well, there could be any sort of substance, it could be an alloy, I would like to find something which is 100% pure.

There is a guy in the UK selling copper mesh through eBay but his description is not very clear and I have to spend more on shipping than on the item.

I would like to know, especially from EU "colleagues", how do they source their packing.

If I go to a Leroy Merlin, what kind of product do I have to ask that you know is 100% safe?

[greggn]

You have copper pipe there, don't you ? Cut some pipe into small shards and mix them in with either raschig rings or marbles.

[Birrofilo]

You have copper pipe there, don't you ? Cut some pipe into small shards and mix them in with either raschig rings or marbles.

Yes but is all copper pipe created equal? How can I know that there is no toxic substance added in a material which was not intended for food preparation, and especially distillation? I mean substances that help prevent oxydation, or help soldering, or help malleability, or resistance to some chemical agents or whatever quality is desired in that copper pipe.

How can I know if the pipe is 100% or 95% copper? Is there a specific kind of copper pipe that I have to ask for? Do I risk buying copper with some brass, or some lead, or something else in it?

It's the same doubt I have regarding use of electric wires. What is not intended to be in contact with food can contain any kind of undeclared substance which will end up in my distillations

All the talks about silicone made me suspicious about anything touching my alcohol which is not meant to touch alcohol. Maybe there is some specific classification of copper (such as AISI for stainless steel). Or is all copper equally safe?

EDIT: I just found this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Doesn't clarify my doubts, though.
There is no "food grade" code for copper, that I can find.

[Birrofilo]

Just found another document:

https://www.copper.org/publications/new ... o_toc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

and extract (underlined by yours truly):
<<
Alloys based upon copper are classified as non-ferrous (ferrous materials are iron-base; for example, steel). Useful alloying additions of other elements to the alloy types listed above in small amounts can include aluminum, arsenic, antimony, beryllium, cadmium, chromium, cobalt, cadmium, iron, lead, manganese, nickel, niobium, oxygen, phosphorus, silicon, silver, sulfur, tellurium, tin, zinc and zirconium. All are found in standard coppers and copper alloys and are added as required in small amounts to give specific properties suitable for many demanding applications.

Some alloying elements have been in use with copper since early times. The development of metallurgical and corrosion science knowledge has provided many answers to specific metallurgical or corrosion phenomena, and these improvements, in turn, have at times lead to the use of other alloying elements with copper. A good example of this synergism is the development of new and improved alloys for use in the electronics industry.
>>

When I go to the shop and ask for a "copper tube" (or copper mesh etc.) they will give me something that, substantially, is copper, but I am not sure it is healthy for our purposes.

I don't know, for instance, if it is made from recycled copper, and in the cauldron there might have been some lead from previous soldering of the recycled material. I don't know if a copper tube is necessarily "food grade".
I am surprised there is no such classification for copper, or I cannot find it anyway.

An item in steel, or plastic, can have the "food grade" symbol (the glass and fork).
Maybe there are some specific "food grade" copper sheets that can be used more safely.

[still_stirrin]

...I don't know...if a copper tube is necessarily "food grade". I am surprised there is no such classification for copper, or I cannot find it anyway...

Copper is copper. Unless it is alloyed, ie - brass. You’re not going to find a “food grade” certification on copper piping because it is not used in the preparation of foods. But, since it is still used for delivery of potable water, it is established as acceptable for contact with consumable products (unless those products will reduce the copper element to a toxic salt...stong acids, for example). So, copper is acceptable provided the service in which it is used.

For our needs, all copper (pure copper) is acceptable for use in potable (consumable) utility.

I would doubt that commercial copper piping is alloyed...it isn’t in the US...so, I doubt it is where you are either. All I know...it is expensive...so much so, that thieves steal it from construction sites or housing developments purely for the cash value of the salvage. I’ve seen thieves steal air conditioning compressors from occupied houses just to salvage the copper from the units. Or rip copper wiring out of new homes just to salvage the copper. A damn shame I’d say.

Bottomline here, I think you’re worried about too small of detail. Chances are, your copper plumbing is absolutely fine to use in your build. No need to lose so much sleep over it. Or, there’s other things you should be worring about instead.

Carry on.
ss

[Birrofilo]

Thanks @still_stirring

so, copper overall should be generally safe.

As a general rule, is there a method to tell apart a true 100% copper mesh from a copper-coated mesh? When I receive this copper mesh I would like to "test" it. Maybe I should let it immersed in alcohol, or some acid?

Actually, I am interested also in valid "testing procedure" as far as SS mesh is concerned. SS is probably more problematic than copper mesh.

I understand the Rashig rings which I indicated in the OP should be genuine, as I received no warning message. Probably they are cheap because they are "ugly".
My doubt is that they might be in synthetic ceramics (glue and epoxydinc resin).

I'm a bit paranoid regarding packing material. I wasn't before reading Home Distiller forum, I swear

[MoonBreath]

Copper mesh for beginners...Get ya a handle on the technique..
Needn some screened gaskets for containment.
Available at StillDragon or eBay.
Then graduate to rings, marbles, or spiral cuttns ifn not satisfied with mesh..
Start with the cheapest first, maybe the best.

[Birrofilo]

I wanted to avoid an "all copper mesh" packing because I did not want to have too much copper "particles" in my spirits.

With 1,2m (2") in the column, it's a lot of copper. I know some people have the entire still in copper, but that's usually a pot still, so the contact with copper is relatively short. In a column, with the vapours going up and down along the copper for a long time, the contact is much more pronounced, and so I was wary of this. I thought one HETP of copper would have been enough, and Rashig rings for the rest of the column height.

But having no experience (I have yet to receive my column) I have no idea of how much mesh, and how much Rashig rings, I need to fill the column entirely, and how much does it weight. I also would like to experiment with SS mesh (little copper mesh, SS mesh for the rest of the column) but cannot find a way to test the suitability of the SS mesh. Ceramic, if it's real ceramic, doesn't give any release for sure, even if it's not "food safe" (it's intrinsically food safe). A SS mesh is manufactured for a non-food use and I am wary of shortcuts, they might appear not to release anything, but it might be appearance. SS saddles are probably safer, but I cannot find them here in Italy.

I have several screened bottoms, I bought a Still Dragon column and I have their screens.

[still_stirrin]

...I did not want to have too much copper "particles" in my spirits....But having no experience (I have yet to receive my column) I have no idea...

Well, that kinda’ summarizes it for you...you lack experience. “Too much copper” in the vapor path is highly unlikely.

And the copper won’t produce “copper particles” in your spirit. Copper reacts with sulphur ions to precipitate as salts, removing them from the product. It helps clean the smell and flavor from washes made with an abundance of nutrients.

So, I agree with MoonBreath, getcha’ some copper mesh...I think you’ll like it, especially with an otherwise all stainless steel boiler and still. Copper is GOOD....but expensive.

Rings (good ceramic rings) are expensive too and but quite efficient. I use (cheap) glass marbles, and I like them for their cost and maintenance advantages.

I do not see any advantage to mixed packing. You want to establish a stable reflux flow in the column, so homogeneous packing makes the most sense funtionally.

Sometimes, inexperience creates unnatural speculation...such that “following the lead” may get you to YOUR product quicker.

Good luck with your path...whatever that may be.
ss

[Birrofilo]

Yes, I think that, having no experience, I tend to "overthink" and I tend to see possible problems or dangers where there are none.

I was also influenced by the fact that StillSpirits sells the T500 with included packing, and packing is part copper (to be put on the top of the column) and the rest SS saddles. That confirmed the opinion, which I collected somewhere on the internet, that one could actually have too much copper in a reflux column (never too much in a pot still) due to excessive release.

If I find again that source, I will post a conversation in order to stimulate debate about this hypothesis.

Anyway I thank you all and I consider both those specific Rashig rings and that specific copper mesh as suitable.

[Birrofilo]

I bought this through Amazon:
https://www.amazon.it/dp/B007VXF662/?co" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ... _lig_dp_it

It is inadequate. The pictures doesn't show it well. The scrubber is composed like a tissue with a weft in synthetic material, and warp in copper thread. The plastic makes it unsuitable for column packing, I returned it.

I bought in a local Conad some 2-scrubber packs which seem suitable. They are marked Spirale acciaio inox the label says on the back: Composizione: 100% acciaio inossidabile (inox). They are also decently cheap: €0,85 for a pack with two scrubbers.

I'm still looking for a suitable 100% copper packing, which doesn't seem very easy to find here in Italy.

[Bushman]

I have a 4" CM and my only packing is copper. Mash Rookie had this copper tested and it is pure. You might consider this as an alternative.
Making your own Copper Mash

[Birrofilo]

I have a 4" CM and my only packing is copper. Mash Rookie had this copper tested and it is pure. You might consider this as an alternative.
Making your own Copper Mash

Thanks.
Can you please point me to the procedure used by Mash Rookie to test the copper for purity?

[Bushman]

I have a 4" CM and my only packing is copper. Mash Rookie had this copper tested and it is pure. You might consider this as an alternative.
Making your own Copper Mash

Thanks.
Can you please point me to the procedure used by Mash Rookie to test the copper for purity?

No as when he and I came up with the idea to make or own packing he had it taken to a lab and had it tested. I just took him at his word as he was doing a lot to promote new ideas in distilling. Unfortunately we lost him to ALS a few years ago.

[Bushman]

As a testimonial, my column is Stainless steel but I have filled it with this packing and have been using it for years.

[Birrofilo]

I think reliable copper scrubbers are simply not available in my country, not at a decent cost.

So I am examining those alternatives:

1) Copper rivets. Those seems from the description to be 100% copper, not an alloy
https://www.amazon.it/sourcingmap%C2%AE ... =viti+rame" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
ASIN: B018HMGW1S

2) Copper washers. Those are sold as "high quality copper" and the description says material:copper
make: Walfront, model: EXPSFN018923
https://www.amazon.it/dp/B074RHN4SV/?co ... _lig_dp_it" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

3) Copper thread used in jewellery work
https://www.amazon.it/dp/B00AKA9M8Q/?co ... _lig_dp_it" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
this I don't know if it is coated or what, but I asked a question on Amazon.
(ASIN: B00AKA9M8Q)

Rivets seem not a bad solution.
I am tempted, if the thread is suitable, to make a "necklace" with thread and washers, with many curves and retorts, so that this becomes an object which is extracted easily from the column. The washers alone would tend to settle to the ground maybe in a too compact way, although the different diameters might help in keeping them in a disorderly way.

Suggestions and opinions welcome

[greggn]

> So I am examining those alternatives:

Copper mesh is also used for pest control in gardens ... have searched for that ?

[butterpants]

I use this

https://www.domyown.com/stuffit-copper-mesh-p-1463.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Birrofilo]

Sometimes I see mesh sold as "pest control" in Chinese sites.
I avoid Chinese sites both for the long shipping times and the very approximate, not to say random, description of the goods sold.
I also avoid buying from outside the EU because there often are customs duties and delays.

The mere description of a copper as being suitable for pest control leaves all the doubts I have regarding generic copper in general. I don't consider safe a material which is not marked "pure copper". A pest-control mesh could be an alloy which makes it perfectly suitable for pest control, but not for a healthy distilling.

Making mesh from electric wire would be fine if I could know that electric wire is safe. It might be not, it might have been added with some substance to make it more flexible, or a better conductor, or to save money.

Basically I dont' trust anything that is not specifically sold for distilling or specifically sold as "pure copper". I find copper mesh in some foreign distilling sites but it's ridiculously expensive, and also the shipping is way disproportionate.

I'm surprised other European forum participants don't have this problem.

I found no Italian shop selling copper mesh.

For what I understand, home distillers in Italy use almost exclusively copper pot stills. Inox doesn't seem to be widespread, judging from YouTube videos, and forced reflux distillers are basically unknown. Most people is after homemade grappa and brandy. Copper mesh doesn't seem to be something people need to buy.

[der wo]

Sorry, that I missed this thread, Birrofilo. I know those plastic knitted copper scrubbies...
Try those scrubbies. They are 100% copper. No plastics:
https://www.amazon.it/Redecker-Scrubber ... 0CPYR1J8Q5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Or buy copper SPP from Poland.

[Birrofilo]

Thanks der wo.
I will buy one of the two.

I would like to consider SPP too.

Can you give me the internet address of the Polish shop? That would be of general interest I presume.

[der wo]

I use stainless SPP and a few Redecker copper scrubbies.

Here I buyed the ss SPP:
http://pracowniametaloplastyczna.pl/en/my-spp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I wrote an email and asked how much I need for my 2" 1m column and how much it costs inc. shipping to Germany. Then I mailed ok, payed by PayPal and got it within 3 days.
The quality is good I think. Don't know something about the copper SPP.

Here another polish shop:
https://padew.pl/en/column-packings-dis ... per-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
But I never ordered there.


Edit: or here: https://www.destylacja.com/pl/p/SPREZYN ... ZIANE/2542" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[hellbilly007]

I'm not sure if this us the same as Der Wo's link but I did find this, https://www.amazon.it/dp/B07BP2NWHL/ref ... bBbNS4VABH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Birrofilo]

Guys, thank you a lot!

The last link provided by HillBilly007 would certainly have been my first choice if I had found it by myself earlier. Cheap and 100% copper. Thanks.

But now the links provided by Der Wo will cause me to study a little bit more the advantages / disadvantages of SPP vs mesh. The Polish sites seem to have decent prices, althought the mesh looks cheaper.

One of those Polish sites, for what I understood, claims that SPP has a much higher HETP compared to mesh.
http://pracowniametaloplastyczna.pl/en/my-spp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Those are stainless steel rather than copper, but for what I understand, they claim that for 6 equivalent plates one needs:
100 cm of Rashig rings; or
27 cm of mesh; or
12 cm of SPP.

That would mean that HETP for SPP is 2 cm, and the home distiller would reach a 50 plates equivalent with 1m column ( ).

This at first sight looks to me a commercial proposal akin to "enlarge your penis by 20% in three weeks with our cream" or "lose 30 kg in 3 months with our new exclusive diet". But maybe I am wrong.

I am also interested in gin, Geist and amari and I am very interested in neutrals.

[der wo]

The SPP has another advantage: You don't have to think about how tight you compress it. If there will be troubles with your first runs, with SPP there would be one detail less, which perhaps causes the trouble.

Yes, SPP is easy noticable better. 50 plates in 1m? I don't know. Of course you have all those plates only as long you reflux everything back. When you collect 50% of the steam (reflux ratio 1:1) youy have only half of the plates left.

hellbillies mesh will be ok too. I have never used such mesh, can't write much about. I have used always scrubbies or SPP.

[Birrofilo]

thanks Der Wo,
all well considered my main packing will be SPP as, in fact, not having to worry about the density of the packing is no small advantage.