"Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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"Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

So far I got good results with my Ø 3" VM column.
In fact I got the opportunity to buy some asparagus pots on a German EBay auction website. Cooking asparagus is quite popular in Germany, but may be some people wanted to get rid of unused wedding presents, so I could get them at a very low price, less than 5 euros each on average...
Those pots are Ø +/-160 mm or +/- 6" for a height of 210-240 mm.
I have eight of them, seven plates plus a dephlegmator (CM).
Hence, the idea of building a Ø 6" bubbler by stacking those pots. That's why I wrote :"kitchenware bubbler..."
For the bubble caps, I'm using SS Ø 115 mm X H 55 mm food containers.
For the sight-glasses, I'm using Ø 5" tri-clamp ferrules and Pyrex glass. The size 5'' is dictated by the size of my food containers I want to be able to remove.
At this stage, I'm drilling holes in the food containers (bubble caps) and I'm concerned about the size of those holes. I assume the surface of all those holes must be >= than the risers surface, am I right?
My intention is to drill bigger holes let's say Ø 6.5 or 7 mm and cut some splits every odd hole...
Here some pictures, I lost the ones where I melted the pots aluminium bottom...
Stacked pots to give an idea, I'm going to use eight of them, seven plates and one dephlegmator
Stacked pots to give an idea, I'm going to use eight of them, seven plates and one dephlegmator
Need some maths to adjust the ferrule to the pot before welding
Need some maths to adjust the ferrule to the pot before welding
Angle grinder with a special disk for SS. It's not finished, one need to use another disk for fine adjustment...
Angle grinder with a special disk for SS. It's not finished, one need to use another disk for fine adjustment...
TIG welded ferrule.
TIG welded ferrule.
The tri clamp is quite heavy, I need to hold the pot...
The tri clamp is quite heavy, I need to hold the pot...
I bought a set of three, and a set of four...
I bought a set of three, and a set of four...
Last edited by Garouda on Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Apparently, the system does not accept more than five pictures in each post...
Here are the remaining pictures...
Not always easy to be right in the centre, but who cares?
Not always easy to be right in the centre, but who cares?
7x37 holes so far = 259, next run 518 plus a few more... drilling is also boring...
7x37 holes so far = 259, next run 518 plus a few more... drilling is also boring...
There's a shallow cup on top, I may drill some small holes to have an additional perforated plate...
There's a shallow cup on top, I may drill some small holes to have an additional perforated plate...
One drawing is some times more effective than thousand words... Here we can see the risers, the bubble cap, the plate and the downcomer...
One drawing is some times more effective than thousand words... Here we can see the risers, the bubble cap, the plate and the downcomer...
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Yummyrum »

Love your work Garouda :thumbup:

Great cheap construction . Swedish pride would be very proud of you :ebiggrin:
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Thanks a lot Yummyrum ! :thumbup:
In fact I plan to use that setting for my Rum, keeping the Ø 3" VM for vodka (base for Gin and Pastis) :angel:
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Setsumi »

This is interesting. And rich on those 5" sight glasses!

How deep will your liquid bed be on the plate?
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Setsumi »

If you drill holes on top of your cap you will need to run your plate depth deep enough to cover them. That might not be optimal. Myself think a lower liquid depth on the plates makes better product or less smearing of fractions. There are discussions in threads that say deeper liquid depths makes more flavour...
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Setsumi wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:23 pm If you drill holes on top of your cap, you will need to run your plate depth deep enough to cover them. That might not be optimal. Myself think a lower liquid depth on the plates makes better product or less smearing of fractions. There are discussions in threads that say deeper liquid depths makes more flavour...
It's not sure... there will be a small amount of liquid on top of the bubble caps, but the main feature is below, at the level of the plate itself.
To answer your 1st question, I'm going to have my downcomer at around 15 mm above the plate. I would be able to adjust it if it's too low by having a piece of copper tube as spacer to leave a little gap between the edge of my bubble caps and the plates...
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Setsumi »

15 mm for your down commer height sounds right to me you might do 18 mm even. I would like to see your finished build in action.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Demy »

Great job, I like people who build.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by tiramisu »

Oh my goodness.... That is some fine thinking. Pretty sure that a 6" column might be excessive for my needs but I've seen asparagus pots go very cheap at clearance sales.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Setsumi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:56 am 15 mm for your downcomer height sounds right to me, you might do 18 mm even. I would like to see your finished build in action.
Thanks, I would also like to test it, but there's still some work on it...
I need to make a calculation, in fact I want to place as many risers as I can (Ø ID 3/4" or 285mm2), indeed why aiming at 6" to have only a small surface... The bubble cap itself is Ø 115 mm or 4.5" surface = 104 cm2.
According to the picture, I can have up to 15 risers, or 42.75 cm2, the holes (Ø 7 mm) and splits represent 19.4 cm2, I need an additional 23cm2 which means a gap of 6.5 mm between the edge of my bubble cap and the plate, or an overall depth of 21 mm...
If 21 mm is too deep, I can reduce the number of risers, but then also the output...
I can have up to 15 risers ID Ø 3/4", I may mix ID 5/8" to get some more...
I can have up to 15 risers ID Ø 3/4", I may mix ID 5/8" to get some more...
Holes of Ø 7 mm, and a split every odd hole...
Holes of Ø 7 mm, and a split every odd hole...
bubble cap.png (6.06 KiB) Viewed 1781 times
On this drawing, we can notice the big size of the  'riser' and the space between the cap and the plate
On this drawing, we can notice the big size of the 'riser' and the space between the cap and the plate
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Setsumi »

Multiple risers should work, only con i see is all the fixing. One large riser will solder or braze in easier than a lot of small ones. I doubt there will be benefits though.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Yummyrum »

Setsumi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:55 pm One large riser will solder or braze in easier than a lot of small ones.
Thats my thinking on it too Setsumi . …. Lot of potential hard work for no obvious gains

Maybe a few more down comers might be of more use .
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by LWTCS »

Agree Yummy.
Taking onto account that vapor will occupy more volume/ space, not going to get optimal hydraulic behavior if the vapor through put far exceeds the drain capability.

I'd personally spend a bit more time and effort theorizing about the downcomer real estate.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Setsumi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:55 pm Multiple risers should work, only con i see is all the fixing. One large riser will solder or braze in easier than a lot of small ones. I doubt there will be benefits though.
Who spoke about soldering or brazing ? The only thing I will solder is a copper wire on the copper tube to keep it in place, and drill two holes beneath the plate to have another copper wire locking everything. I cannot find the right flux down here any way to silver soldering copper and SS...
Look at sieves or perforated plates, a little gap is not an issue...
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Setsumi wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:55 pm Multiple risers should work, only con i see is all the fixing. One large riser will solder or braze in easier than a lot of small ones. I doubt there will be benefits though.
What I could do, indeed, is welding a Ø 3" piece of SS pipe, left over from my VM column, but I like to have some copper in the vapour path and I have got plenty of Ø OD 22.2 mm copper pipes at my disposal.
Last edited by Garouda on Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:47 am Thats my thinking on it too Setsumi . …. Lot of potential hard work for no obvious gains
Maybe a few more down comers might be of more use .
I could use some Ø ID 1" pipe as down comer. Could you explain a bit more Yummy? On many projects I notice only one down comer.
I really appreciate your comments, at this stage I still can bring some modifications to the project.
Last edited by Garouda on Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:13 pm Agree Yummy.
Taking onto account that vapour will occupy more volume/ space, not going to get optimal hydraulic behaviour if the vapour through put far exceeds the drain capability.

I'd personally spend a bit more time and effort theorizing about the downcomer real estate.
Basically, the down comer drains liquid, any pressure increase would reduce the amount of vapour, so where's the problem ? Could you please give a bit more details, fluid mechanics has never been my favourite subject?
Last edited by Garouda on Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Garouda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:59 am Look at sieves or perforated plates, a little gap is not an issue...
Ive run and built two Perf Plate Stills, every gap no matter of size makes a difference to performance, they lower performance in a multitude of ways and make the still more temperamental to run.
Different sized unplanned gaps between column wall and plates can mean that one plate runs happily at one heat setting while another is running at less than optimum.
In extreme cases that can mean that one plate is trying to dry up , while another is almost at the point of being flooded.
Gaps will also mean with a perf plate that you need to run more power/ heat than otherwise needed to keep plates loaded, this in turn can push tails through in my experience.
My first had a plate tree and very small gaps , the second has plates soldered into the modules and absolutely no gaps, I know which one runs best and which one I would put in the bin if I had to make that choice.
As others have stated above, the other thing that leads to problems with these type of stills is poor down commer performance.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by LWTCS »

Garouda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:16 am
LWTCS wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:13 pm Agree Yummy.
Taking onto account that vapour will occupy more volume/ space, not going to get optimal hydraulic behaviour if the vapour through put far exceeds the drain capability.

I'd personally spend a bit more time and effort theorizing about the downcomer real estate.
Basically, the downcomer drains liquid, any pressure increase would reduce the amount of vapour, so where's the problem ? Could you please give a bit more details, fluid mechanics has never been my favourite subject?
Pressure is driven from bottom to top. Not top to bottom. It is heat/pressure that drives the vapor toward the product condenser.

Heat (from the kettle) = pressure.
More heat= more vapor = more product. However, more heat = more pressure.
More pressure = less drainage or more liquid hold up
Small drain = more liquid hold up.

Ideally you'll want to give each plate level the ability to drain as much (or more) liquid than the alcoholic vapor can deliver.
Now, having said that, your column is a big ole dude that I assume will be sitting on a 50ish liter kettle powered by a 6000 watt element or less? So you may find that the added diameter of your column does a nice job of helping your plates cope with unbalanced design parameters.

Just don't expect the column to run any faster/better than a 4" column.

As a fellow kitchenware still builder, I do like your build a lot and hope she runs beautifully for you.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

LWTCS wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:10 am
Pressure is driven from bottom to top. Not top to bottom. It is heat/pressure that drives the vapour toward the product condenser.

Heat (from the kettle) = pressure.
More heat= more vapour = more product. However, more heat = more pressure.
More pressure = less drainage or more liquid hold up
Small drain = more liquid hold up.
Ideally you'll want to give each plate level the ability to drain as much (or more) liquid than the alcoholic vapour can deliver.
Now, having said that, your column is a big hole dude that I assume will be sitting on a 50ish litre kettle powered by a 6000 watt element or less? So you may find that the added diameter of your column does a nice job of helping your plates cope with unbalanced design parameters.
Just don't expect the column to run any faster/better than a 4" column.
As a fellow kitchenware still builder, I do like your build a lot and hope she runs beautifully for you.
About vapour pressure, at a certain time, the vapour in one compartment (asparagus pot) will have a certain pressure, coming from the burner of course, that makes sense to me. What do you recommend for the down comer? I could add a second one, but I've never seen any design with two down comers.
The boiler is my Ø 3" boiler, Ø 50 cm X H 50 cm or +/- 100 l. (98...)
I live in the middle of nowhere, no grid, only solar panels, therefore I'm using a gas burner.
I do not expect to have a better output than with a Ø 4" column, I was more interested in a plated column vs my VM column for flavoured products (Rum, Whiskey. ...)
The size is simply dictated by the opportunity of those asparagus pots in auctions.
Thanks for your advice and comments, I appreciate. :thumbup:
Last edited by Garouda on Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:38 am
Garouda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:59 am Look at sieves or perforated plates, a little gap is not an issue...
I've run and built two Perf Plate Stills, every gap no matter of size makes a difference to performance, they lower performance in a multitude of ways and make the still more temperamental to run.
Different sized unplanned gaps between column wall and plates can mean that one plate runs happily at one heat setting while another is running at less than optimum.
(..)
As others have stated above, the other thing that leads to problems with these type of stills is poor down comer performance.
I'm not in that situation with a gap between the plates and the wall, my plates are the pot's bottom, completely sealed. The gap I mention, if any, is the one that may occur between the plate and the risers. I'm going to drill Ø 22 mm holes for Ø 22.2 pieces of copper...
I may need to make one and take a picture.
Regarding the down comers, I'd like to find facts and figures to know exactly what I have to do.
Thanks for your time and comments, I appreciate ! :thumbup:
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Setsumi »

Garouda wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:59 am I'm not in that situation with a gap between the plates and the wall, my plates are the pot's bottom, completely sealed. The gap I mention, if any, is the one that may occur between the plate and the risers. I'm going to drill Ø 22 mm holes for Ø 22.2 pieces of copper...
I may need to make one and take a picture.
Regarding the down comers, I'd like to find facts and figures to know exactly what I have to do.
Thanks for your time and comments, I appreciate ! :thumbup:
I can not remenber seeing specific dimensions for caps. I did the following for a single cap on the procap style for a 100mm plate.

Plate 100mm diam
Cap should be 58-63mm diam mine is 67mm outside... it eats plate space
Riser 42mm diam
Downcommer 22mm diam
Slots 3mmx6mm spaced 3mm appart.

I believe the dimensions is close to found on the single cap platers with center downcommers for sale... but it is realy just by eye balling web diagrams/images.

The only gripe i have with my caps is that i believe the liquid depth is too much. But if you have a seperate downcommer you could size it appropriately.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by RC Al »

The trick to downcomers is foam/bubble management

Even a 1/2 tube can handle the amount of fluid heading down most stills, provided theres no air bubbles. When I rinse my still at the the end of a run, I can literally pour a gallon jug into the top, barely pausing, theres only 3x 1/2" Dc's with the 3 pro caps per plate im running, its gone in seconds.

Ive seen a few strategies for this, slots on the top of the Dc and flared openings come to mind, but mostly people these days just "oversize" the Dc to cope with the extra volume from the bubbles.

If your caps are going to float above the plate, go hard with the risers, but at a certain power level the vapour will bypass the slots (making large inefficient bubbles). If they are going to sit flush, then the area of your slots is the choke point and all the risers in the world aint going to make a difference.
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Setsumi wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:11 pm
I can not remenber seeing specific dimensions for caps. I did the following for a single cap on the procap style for a 100mm plate.

Plate 100mm diam
Cap should be 58-63mm diam mine is 67mm outside... it eats plate space
Riser 42mm diam
Downcommer 22mm diam
Slots 3mmx6mm spaced 3mm appart.

I believe the dimensions is close to found on the single cap platers with center downcommers for sale... but it is realy just by eye balling web diagrams/images.

The only gripe i have with my caps is that i believe the liquid depth is too much. But if you have a seperate downcommer you could size it appropriately.
Thanks a lot for that information, :thumbup: how high is your weir? (what's the liquid depth you describe as too much ?)
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

RC Al wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:11 am The trick to downcomers is foam/bubble management

Even a 1/2 tube can handle the amount of fluid heading down most stills, provided theres no air bubbles. When I rinse my still at the the end of a run, I can literally pour a gallon jug into the top, barely pausing, theres only 3x 1/2" Dc's with the 3 pro caps per plate im running, its gone in seconds.
Thanks :thumbup: for confirming what I had in mind, so my Ø 3/4" would do the job. I think the DC length can handle the froth if any or the liquid/vapour mixture in order to allow the vapour to escape to make sure the separation of the vapour/liquid mixture is complete at the bottom of the down comer.
I saw a video on YT where the DC was a kind of bubble cap put upside down beneath the tray, being just slightly longer than a bubble cap...
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Setsumi »

Garouda wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:47 pm
Setsumi wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:11 pm
I can not remenber seeing specific dimensions for caps. I did the following for a single cap on the procap style for a 100mm plate.

Plate 100mm diam
Cap should be 58-63mm diam mine is 67mm outside... it eats plate space
Riser 42mm diam
Downcommer 22mm diam
Slots 3mmx6mm spaced 3mm appart.

I believe the dimensions is close to found on the single cap platers with center downcommers for sale... but it is realy just by eye balling web diagrams/images.

The only gripe i have with my caps is that i believe the liquid depth is too much. But if you have a seperate downcommer you could size it appropriately.
Thanks a lot for that information, :thumbup: how high is your weir? (what's the liquid depth you describe as too much ?)
23mm, and since the downcommers is integrated in the caps i cannot change then without major disasemble. My perfotated plates have 15mm downcommers, i believe the fraction transitions are shapper on my perfs because of the smaller liquid depth. But it is just operational parameters that one needs to fine tune for the different plates...
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

Thanks a lot ! Anyway, I'm on hold. I used a TiAlN coated step drill bit to drill the holes but, as I cannot use my drill press, the holes aren't perfect. So I ordered TCT Alloy Hole Saw bits. It takes at least ten days to get here...
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by tiramisu »

The waiting while building is the worst part of this "hobby".
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Re: "Kitchenware" Ø 6" bubbler

Post by Garouda »

tiramisu wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:57 pm The waiting while building is the worst part of this "hobby".
Well, in my case, it has been a very long process... It's a project I have in mind since I'm a young boy, but I made my first run last year (Ø 3" VM still) !
So far I made vodka (as base product for Gin and Pastis), and Rum.
Here is my very first post on this forum :https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 2#p6917892 it was in July 2011, some 10 years ago...
I initially followed the Boka fashion, but changed my mind when I saw my Boka head for real... I'm happy I made the decision to migrate to a VM head instead...
The current plated column project is for the production of Rum and maybe grain based spirits.
I also want to make beer, so I have some work waiting on that project too. In fact beer came after the idea of distilling grain based spirits (corn is cheap here). The main difference between a malt whisky and beer is hop... Otherwise, the brewing/mashing process is almost the same...
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