Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

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dmw_chef
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Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by dmw_chef »

hi folks -

I wanted to get a sanity check on upgrading my pot column to a reflux column. I think searching around and reading old threads has led me down the correct path, but reading through old threads can also be quite confusing and what was considered best practice 10-15 years ago may not be now.

From the start I intended to eventually build my column into a CCVM, so the whole thing is build from triclamp parts.

B - A
|
C
|
D
|
E
|
F

A: triclamp elbow and 2" 45 CM shotgun condenser
B: Triclamp T with cap on top
C: 80 CM spool, packed with a couple copper mesh rolls
D: Plate with large perforations
E: 2" to 1.5" reducer
F: Anvil Foundry 10.5 gallon

To complete my upgrade, I believe i will need the following parts:

G: Coil condenser (thinking https://www.olympicdistillers.com/shop- ... -condenser)
H: Instrument T with a thermowell
K: triclamp sight glass section

So my column becomes:

G
|
B - A
|
H
|
K
|
C
|
D
|
E
|
F

I know that the sight glass and thermowell aren't strictly necessary, but my searching seems to indicate they're helpful especially when learning.

The big thing I'm having trouble figuring out is the amount of packing I will need. My original inclination was to go with stainless SPP (thinking https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256801207615371.html?), but I've been seeing in my searches that folks are having equivalent results using lava rocks as a column packing. The price difference, and not having to wait two months for shipping make this very attractive.

Can pre made lava rock gravel be used for the packing? (

I've been having trouble finding a definitive answer as to how much packing (either SPP or lava gravel) I should have. I know that completely filling my 80 CM spool is overkill to a ridiculous degree, so my plan was to use enough copper mesh rolls to have the top of the packing layer (SPP or rocks) to be 1/2 to 3/4 up the sight glass.

Can anyone shed some light on how much of either packing media I'd need?

Anything I've forgotten?
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Twisted Brick
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by Twisted Brick »

The rule of thumb for a reflux column is 20-24:1 (h:d). So for a 2" column you're looking at 40-48" or thereabouts. Many members report good results with 36-38 of packing. Below is a pic of the modular components I built for a member. The spools are 20", 18" and 8". The shotgun condenser is 21" and the tee-extension is 4". Missing from the pic is a sightglass and reflux coil (the member already had these).

A sightglass is not mandatory but highly recommended since it provides a window to what's going on inside your column. If you plan on conducting stripping runs prior to a reflux spirit run, don't forget a 2" cap and tri-clamp for the top of your tee.

Lava rock sizes are dependent on column width. I believe Mars (Stillerboy) recommends 1/4" - 1/3" for a 2" column.

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Sporacle
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by Sporacle »

I run a fraction over the 20 to 1 ratio on my CCVM, packing is copper mesh rolled and fitted snug enough. If you went with rolled copper mesh you get get away without using the perforated plate.
I have a thermowell and sight glass and don't really use either. If you want to put them in by all means do it.
You will find that when you are into your run and you have your reflux dialled in well that they maintain a very constant abv and temp and you will notice a rapid drop in output and abv when the tails come, you can also hear and smell the change as well.
It's the only reflux still I have run, aside from an old still spirits reflux with turbo. I find it very similar to my pot, I run it by output and will check litres per hour every so often as well as taking abv occasionally.
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Wyododge
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by Wyododge »

Looks as though you’ve done your homework and are on the right path. My still is in the gather and assembly stage. As far as the individual components, many make their own, others choose to purchase pre made. An example is TwistedBricks shotgun condenser. I am more than capable of building one, but I chose to support a guy who not only provides an excellent product, but is one hell of a craftsman. Being able to build one, in no way indicates I could produce something close to the quality he does, and that was the deciding factor for me. The condenser I bought from him is setting on a shelf right now. Trust me, it is worth way more than I paid for it. As for a boiler, again, the same thing. Used kegs are near impossible to find round here and for the cost of fittings, keg, components and most of all fabrication time, I chose to design mine and have someone build it for me.

As for the ‘extras’, I have two sight glasses in my column but no thermo-well. Cranky tapes a probe to his column under his insulation. Cheap easy and simple. The actual numbers from the probe don’t matter, they are bench marks to which he tunes his still. I believe Twisted gave me the same advise.

As far as column packing, there are many using lava rock with excellent results. I believe most buy standard and use a bfh to break it up. To me, spp is just too expensive. I have a 3” column. It would cost a fortune for what appears to be a negligible result. I am going with marbles (after consultation with a member on here). Marbles are cheap, easy to clean and have respectable results. One thing I would say for sure from my reading is that if you have 80” of column, you want as much packing as you can afford, so it may be better to have 80” of a less efficient but inexpensive packing than a shorter amount of more expensive. I believe the key is theoretical plates. Others will most certainly chime in and most likely correct me.

On the diffuser plate. I have read, they are not a very valuable addition. I designed a 2” column fitting onto my boiler, then I use a 2” to 3” adapter. I wadded up a bunch of copper wire into a ball and drop it in the adapter to support my packing. Definitely not my idea, but it’s cheap, easy, simple and works. It will never compress, degrade vapor velocity or collect liquid. Don’t remember who wrote the post, but it’s another one of those ingenious ideas on here. There are many other ingenious and easy solutions to this issue.

Just my $.02, probably worth what you paid for it. I do t know enough to really have an opinion yet.

Edit - posted same time a sporacle
dmw_chef
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by dmw_chef »

Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:32 pm The rule of thumb for a reflux column is 20-24:1 (h:d). So for a 2" column you're looking at 40-48" or thereabouts. Many members report good results with 36-38 of packing.
Doesn't that depend on packing material? I was under the impression that SPP specifically need significantly less packing height to achieve a similar number of theoretical plates than SS scrubbies.
dmw_chef
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by dmw_chef »

It appears 'not SPP' may be a foregone conclusion as everyone selling it for a reasonable price are located in Russia, so....
tjsc5f
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by tjsc5f »

dmw_chef wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:02 pm G: Coil condenser (thinking https://www.olympicdistillers.com/shop- ... -condenser)
What I did, and would recommend, is buy a piece of 3/8"x72" CSST and make your own reflux condenser. About half the price of that one you linked, and as good or better as far as knock down power goes.

If you do end up getting that copper one from olympic distillers, you'll want to pack it full of copper or stainless scrubbies, because the surface area without is pretty low.
dmw_chef
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by dmw_chef »

I'll consider that, thanks!
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by StillerBoy »

dmw_chef wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:02 pm Can pre made lava rock gravel be used for the packing? as per the image provided by amazon, they look to be about the right sizing..

I've been having trouble finding a definitive answer as to how much packing (either SPP or lava gravel) I should have. I know that completely filling my 80 CM spool is overkill to a ridiculous degree, so my plan was to use enough copper mesh rolls to have the top of the packing layer (SPP or rocks) to be 1/2 to 3/4 up the sight glass.
As to the sizing of the lava rocks, I use 3/16 - 5/16" in size with the majority being 1/4".. as to the amount used to fill a 2" column.. well my column is 2 x 35" and it take 1.4 Kilo (3 lbs)..

Mars

Side note.. nice work TB, surely made the new owner prude..
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Twisted Brick
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by Twisted Brick »

dmw_chef wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:25 pm
Twisted Brick wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:32 pm The rule of thumb for a reflux column is 20-24:1 (h:d). So for a 2" column you're looking at 40-48" or thereabouts. Many members report good results with 36-38 of packing.
Doesn't that depend on packing material? I was under the impression that SPP specifically need significantly less packing height to achieve a similar number of theoretical plates than SS scrubbies.
Yes. The 20:1 is just a rule of thumb, open to changes in variables like packing, column composition, insulation, distilling conditions, etc. Those here who run SPP have reported excellent performance.

In case you haven't seen this:

Height for purity, diameter for speed, and HETP Calcs
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dmw_chef
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by dmw_chef »

That's seriously helpful, I hadn't seen that. That's the kind of stuff that needs to be in the wiki.

So the answer is 'as much packing as I can.'

I'll go with the lava rock gravel then and give that a shot. The price is right.
StillerBoy
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by StillerBoy »

dmw_chef wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:23 pm So the answer is 'as much packing as I can.'
I'll go with the lava rock gravel then and give that a shot. The price is right.
Can't go wrong with the lava rocks, and as to refluxing performance, there isn't much in different, but cost and weight wise there is.. to get the best out of the lava rocks, during packing them, just make sure they are compressed by jugging them, you'll be surprised as how much more can be packed, on a 2 x 35" column almost like 2", and a 3 x 36" it's more like 4"..

In refluxing with packing, you want the small spacing between the rocks, that's what needs to be done to equal the SPP packing, small spacing between..

Mars
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Skipper1953
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by Skipper1953 »

I've used lava rock with very good results for a long time. I crushed my own using a BFH and sized it using two hardware cloth screens. Half inch mesh was used to determine maximum size of the gravel and 1/4 inch mesh was used to shake out the small stuff. It really did not take long to make. The stuff that passed thru the 1/4" mesh was used for container gardening.
20220625_161259.jpg
20220625_161135.jpg
I use the lava rock in a 2" X 38" copper column.

Edit: I Forgot to mention that I run a CCVM still.
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by StillerBoy »

Skipper1953 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:39 pm I've used lava rock with very good results for a long time.
Skipper.. if you were to take the time to size them a bit more, you would get better result yet.. having the rocks sized better will allow the rocks to compact better, reducing the spacing between them.. what's better result mean, you'll be able to have a slight faster take off rate during the body section with the same ABV overall, and save time during the run..

Mars
3//16 - 5/16" lava rocks..
3//16 - 5/16" lava rocks..
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by Salt Must Flow »

Skipper1953 wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:39 pm I've used lava rock with very good results for a long time. I crushed my own using a BFH and sized it using two hardware cloth screens. Half inch mesh was used to determine maximum size of the gravel and 1/4 inch mesh was used to shake out the small stuff. It really did not take long to make. The stuff that passed thru the 1/4" mesh was used for container gardening.

20220625_161259.jpg20220625_161135.jpg

I use the lava rock in a 2" X 38" copper column.

Edit: I Forgot to mention that I run a CCVM still.
I was just going to say the same thing as Mars. That lava looks a bit big especially for a 2". Mine is just a bit smaller than yours, but I use a 3" column. With this size there isn't even a hint of flooding at 3025W which makes me suspect I could use even smaller lava rock. I kept all the smaller bits and might try doing a run with the smaller bits to see if there's any noticeable improvement.
Lave Rock Packing.jpg
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Skipper1953
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Re: Help with upgrade to CCVM reflux

Post by Skipper1953 »

Skipper.. if you were to take the time to size them a bit more, you would get better result yet..
I rarely get an opportunity to run my still anymore and will likely be disposing of everything but the multipurpose boiler. I'm sure others may find your suggestion useful.
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