compact column design

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

Moderator: Site Moderator

theholymackerel
retired
Posts: 1432
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:39 pm

Re: compact column design

Post by theholymackerel »

Lubavitcher wrote: maybe you should sill out your product to a higher abv to leave behind more of the sugars and thick starchy compounds.

Are you suggestin' that sugars and starches from a mash or wash carry over through distillation?
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

idk maybe try a small run vodka + sugar = mash and see if it carries into the distillate (try not to burn the sugar) or ferment your mash until its dryer than normal...i figure that the flavor the aromatics the nutrients and the alcohol all carry over so why not some sugar too. i havent read anything on the subject so its just a shot in the dark.... what i really recommend doing is not trying to find out what goes wrong that makes a spirit too creamy instead try to find a case where everything when well and work backwards to reduplicate it
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
theholymackerel
retired
Posts: 1432
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:39 pm

Re: compact column design

Post by theholymackerel »

I can tell you fer sure that sugar DOES NOT go into a vapor, get condenced, and end up in the final product.

Lubavitcher wrote: vodka + sugar = mash

Nope. Fermented sugar is a "wash", while grain that had it's starch converted to sugar then fermented is a "mash". Proper use of terms makes for clearer communication.
rednose
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: compact column design

Post by rednose »

Lubavitcher wrote:idk maybe try a small run vodka + sugar = mash
BS.gif
BS.gif (42.57 KiB) Viewed 5894 times
I guess you have to make some more homework Lub, otherwise you'll confuse new folks here.

Joe
Licensed Micro distillery "Bonanza"; fighting the local market
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

i did start my post with IDK aka I Dont Know. but i guess you guys didnt see that.... i really dont know why some drinks a have body and others dont. whiskeys always have more body and according to HD the body comes from the wood sugars... so i ask why does some vodka have more body? maybe there is sugar or glycerin? maybe you can explain this: what is coming through the distillation process if its not sugars, glycerin, ect that makes some vodkas creamy?
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
theholymackerel
retired
Posts: 1432
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:39 pm

Re: compact column design

Post by theholymackerel »

Oils.

They do carry over from distillation, and they can have a HUGE effect on flavour and mouth-feel.
manu de hanoi
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 798
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:06 am

Re: compact column design

Post by manu de hanoi »

Lubavitcher wrote:i did start my post with IDK aka I Dont Know. but i guess you guys didnt see that.... i really dont know why some drinks a have body and others dont. whiskeys always have more body and according to HD the body comes from the wood sugars... so i ask why does some vodka have more body? maybe there is sugar or glycerin? maybe you can explain this: what is coming through the distillation process if its not sugars, glycerin, ect that makes some vodkas creamy?
some components do taste sweet in some vodka. But chemically they prolly dont belong in the sugar family. Moreover, adding sugar in white spirits is forbidden (at least in france I think) because it lowers the perceived strength of the alcohol.
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: compact column design

Post by Dnderhead »

same here in Us nothing is added, the slight taste can come from,, what it was made from,,sugar products/grain/fruits/vegetables.(grain is the most popular, , potato critics top choice) some use mineral water,spring
or glassier water to cut with, also many are filtered threw charcoal and the type makes some difference. (some imports are not filtered)
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: compact column design

Post by LWTCS »

Lubavitcher wrote:i have never seen any material about how to achieve crisp flavor pleas tell all you know ... maybe you should use phosphoric acid and carbonation to get the crisp flavor just like the soda companys do.
Uhmm,,,,,,Crisp flavor would be indeed stilled to a higher ABV. I am a potstiller and do desire a bit more proof (crisp) in my rum (flavor).

Several of the members do run hybrid potstills. We have each been trying to force our potstills into a non traditional set of behaviors.

More take off speed with good separation.
Flavor retention.
More proof.
And single run.

The key here, is the potstilled flavor profile.

Your comment about Oldog's Evil twins was off the mark as ABV is an academic by-product.

See Butt Wheat's Jah Jah Binks
Look for Slow and Steady's rig
Myles
Barney Fife
Rednose
I think Ayay runs a hybrid.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

LWTCS wrote: Your comment about Oldog's Evil twins was off the mark as ABV is an academic by-product.
please explain this phrase "ABV is an academic by-product"
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
kiwistiller
retired
Posts: 3215
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:09 pm
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: compact column design

Post by kiwistiller »

It's just one philosphy of distilling Lubacitcher. The reality is you don't need to aim for a certain ABV for your output, 'suck it and see' is a perfectly good method, and you can produce some really nice (not to mention varied) products that way.

The other side of the coin is you can try and be very scientific about what you want, and try and get a specific ABV with your equipment (or with any other output statistic for that matter, volume, whatever).

I believe OD was just aiming for a nice flavourful single run machine. I very much doubt he bothered to calculate an ideal plate count or anything before building it (feel free to correct me OD :D ), because there is a lot of fun in building a piece of art like that and seeing what it will produce. Intuition is just as valid as calculation, it just depends on what your goals are.
Three sheets to the wind!
My stuff
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

is this a hybrid still? i figure that all the flavor that boils off the keg would end up in the carboy and all the alcohol would end up out the reflux column and then later you could blend them to your own tastes
hybred.png
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: compact column design

Post by rad14701 »

Lubavitcher, how is that design going to reflux...???
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

ummm... there are coolant tubes at the top to make reflux
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
olddog
retired
Posts: 3618
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:16 pm
Location: WEST OZ

Re: compact column design

Post by olddog »

The idea of a reflux still is that descending condensate returns to the boiler for re-distillation.


OD
OLD DOG LEARNING NEW TRICKS ......
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

if it was run in pure reflux mode it would be only a pot still.... but if you draw off some product it gives a some vodka and some pot still.... hence a hybrid. post stills dont have very much reflux they just collect every thing the flavor and the alcohol mixed this would still collect some mixed flavor and alcohol down in the carboy but it would also collect some more pure stuff they you can blend them to back to together to control how much flavor or alcohol you want
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
rednose
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:07 pm

Re: compact column design

Post by rednose »

You are mixing things extremely to say it with soft words. :mrgreen:

Lubavitcher wrote:if it was run in pure reflux mode it would be only a pot still....
Licensed Micro distillery "Bonanza"; fighting the local market
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

a little bit more on topic here is a design for a compact reflux still. the vapor path would be about 70 inches and it would have a very large cross section so the vapor rate would be real slow
comact distiller.png
comact distiller.png (7.67 KiB) Viewed 5827 times
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: compact column design

Post by Dnderhead »

Don't thank so. the condensed alcohol whould just run along the bottom of each "channel", and not in the packing then it whould not be refluxed. also the column has to be in temperature "graduates" .if things like that worked then they whould use then in commercial stills instead of 50 ft columns.
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

if you take a 20 gallon pot and use the upper 10 gallons for the channels then then the "column" is 2310 square inches if the vapor path is around 60 inches (thats if the diameter of the barrel is 16 inch) so the cross section area is 38.5 inches which is equivalent to the cross section area of a seven inch pipe that leads to a vapor rate 6 times slower then a 2 inch pipe for the same power input.... and to deal with the reflux issue i though about putting in some holes in the plates that would allow "weeping" so the reflux would travel through on to packing.
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: compact column design

Post by LWTCS »

Lubavitcher wrote:if you take a 20 gallon pot and use the upper 10 gallons for the channels
Ambitious build.
OD had some thoughts a while back on a kind of plate set up within my in-line thumper. Couldn't figure how to not over complicate the build.
Lubavitcher wrote:and to deal with the reflux issue i though about putting in some holes in the plates that would allow "weeping" so the reflux would travel through on to packing.


That sounds like a variation of an aray of perferated plates with some a pinch of "ProPak" at each level.
It turns out, I have recently wondered that too.

With the weep openings, do you assert that the vapor will travel through that part of the apperatus laterally?

What benifit do you suppose lateral vapor movement could supply?
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
MuleKicker
retired
Posts: 3111
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:14 pm
Location: If I told you, I'd have to Kill You.

Re: compact column design

Post by MuleKicker »

What if you drilled little holes in the baffles so the alcohol didnt run...you know down one side, fall, back the other way.... and so forth. If you made a few little 1/16in holes, they would be filled with drips of alcohol most of the time preventing vapor from taking path of least resistance.
-Control Freak-
AKA MulekickerHDbrownNose
MuleKicker
retired
Posts: 3111
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:14 pm
Location: If I told you, I'd have to Kill You.

Re: compact column design

Post by MuleKicker »

Lubavitcher wrote:and to deal with the reflux issue i though about putting in some holes in the plates that would allow "weeping" so the reflux would travel through on to packing.
ohhh, maybe yer way ahead of me..... :econfused: :D
-Control Freak-
AKA MulekickerHDbrownNose
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

mule kicker yur funny i love the part about the banjos!
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
Lubavitcher
Novice
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Crown Heights, Brooklyn

Re: compact column design

Post by Lubavitcher »

LWTCS wrote:Ambitious build.
yeah i know its ambitious thats why after the summer when i have money and time i will start the build by buying the pot ($187) http://www.thecarycompany.com/container ... steel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and making the LM head and attaching the head to the pot with a flange so if i want to switch to conventional tall tube design i can. besides i i wouldn't soder the plates in place in the pot i would soder three little stubs for the lowest plate to sit on and then stack every thing on top.... so i could remove all the plates and packing and go back to the full 20 gall at any time.
MuleKicker wrote: If you made a few little 1/16in holes, they would be filled with drips of alcohol most of the time preventing vapor from taking path of least resistance.
bullseye you must be a good shot.
LWTCS wrote:With the weep openings, do you assert that the vapor will travel through that part of the apperatus laterally?
Yes thats the idea!
"malt does more than Milton can, to justify G-d's ways to Man."

There is a famous story in which the Kaiser asks Bismarck, “Can you prove the existence of God?” Bismarck replies, “The Jews, your majesty. The Jews.”
dsg
Novice
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 9:04 am

Re: compact column design

Post by dsg »

This zig-zaging is just the same as increasing the number of the plates (theoretical plates with packing material). Just use stainless scrubbers packing. it will be the same as a few hundred of your plates. The thing that matters the most is the reflux ratio, the more you take back to the column and less out, the purer alchohol or shorter column you can make. the drawback of course is speed, less speed = better separation of the wash/mash. to counter this you make the column diameter bigger and boil faster. In short.... FAT SHORT COLUMN with good stainless scrubber packing LOTS of REFLUX and BIG WATT boiler.

Dav.
Post Reply