Improvment on Bokakobs Angle Plate Still

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Improvment on Bokakobs Angle Plate Still

Postby decoy » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:34 pm

Bokakobs angle plate still caught my eye, i imediatly made a model out of acrylic/plastic and simulated the operation useing compressed air and found it would not drain down to the next level and there for would eventualy flood..

I didnt give up on it and combined some ideas from a conventional plate still etc.

1. introdced a overflow tube for liquid to drain down to the next level

2. angled the entire tube at 45deg to increase bubble travle through liquid.

3. the plates slots are cut at 90deg to tube, were the plate is inserted and brased in place to simplify manufacture, there is no need for making bolt together sections.

4. perferated the top plate from the middle down in each section to create more smaller bubbles instead of one big bubble which violently splased around in tube..

5. placed reflux coil at outside top of colum " this can be changed to suit"

I have made a model out of acrylic and tested it with compressed air and the theory works well.

I am in the process of making a full working unit, but here is a computer model with only 4 plates shown.

Obviously it can be made with any number of plate sections.

I am eager to hear comments on any faults or drawbacks that i may have overlooked.

Image
Image
Image

I will locate and replace the pics....
Last edited by decoy on Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby TEC » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:02 pm

Let me see if I understand how this works.

(A very simplified analogy)

Your 4 plate column (this example) would work about like 4 thumpers in series (with return lines) with better diffusion at each thumper inlet?

Tom
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Postby decoy » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:54 pm

your prety much correct there Tec..

There is nothing new in the operation of the still as it is same as any other plate still.

I was looking for a simpler way to make a plate still without making joints and flanges...
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Postby Guest » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:20 pm

I'd say go for it and then lets sample the product :D

I have a couple of more questions if you don't mind.

1. Does using compressed air and water as a test standard equal the conditions that will be present with a heated alcohol/water vapor?

2. How easy is it to maintain the temperature variation needed between the bottom of the column and the outtake to the condenser needed to maintain a high reflux/ABV% as the ABV% drops during the run?

Really, I'm not knocking this design. You have obviously put a lot of thought into this and I am just trying to understand the complete thought process behind it.

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Postby TEC » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:31 pm

Sorry, that was me above. Don't know how I got logged out :shock:

The following line:
2. How easy is it to maintain the temperature variation needed between the bottom of the column and the outtake to the condenser needed to maintain a high reflux/ABV% as the ABV% drops during the run?


Should have read:

2. How easy is it to maintain the temperature variation needed between the bottom of the column (First plate) and the outtake to the condenser (Last Plate) needed to maintain a high reflux/ABV% outout as the ABV% in the wash drops during the run?

Or am I just over thinking things?
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Postby decoy » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:47 pm

It works on the sam pronciples as a plate or packed column still...

It is based on the amount of vapor presure produced in the pot this is the key starting point to any still design, and being able to controll the amount of vapour produced.

the idea is to use 8 - 12 plates anything after that is marginal
if you set your pot element or burner to maximum you want to achive a operating temerature of 81-82 deg celsius at the last plate.

Thingx that affect operation which i will be playing with when i make a working prototype are:

1 Spaceing between the plates.

2 Extending the top of the perferated plate to discipate a small portion of heat at evry plate.

3 like wise with the drop tubes to discipate heat.
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Postby decoy » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:55 pm

one of the main problems of perferated plate stills is that if you dont have enough presure the liquid built up on the plates will drop through the perferations and you will lose the operation of the plates.

also this designe is more like a bubble cap plate which elimenates the problem of liquid droping.

Alternativly to much presure will build up to much liquid eventualy flooding the plate to a point were it also fails to operate, that is the purpose of the drop tubes..

the compressed air allowed me tu simulate vapour presure and to see how much is requierd for the plates to operate.

the presure changes for the qty and size of the holes in the plate, also the level of fluid that is traped in the pocket.
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Postby TEC » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:43 pm

I think it is great in theory and would love to see it in operation!

I also have a ton of questions, but will wait until you have built a working model and have made a couple of runs with it.

Thanks for the info

Tom

[Edit] Please do not be offended by this: But I think a coil wrapped around the outside of a column is as effective as pissin' on a burnin' tire.
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Postby level Joe » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:55 pm

Nice drawing you’ve made.

I do have some concerns about the design though. I dont know a great deal so dont be offended...

1. I think it would surge gas and fluid between plates (gas moves into plate, builds an amount of pressure, displaces fluid in that plate sending a rush of fluid down sending a rush of gas up etc...). I don’t see it gently flowing up but percolating.

2. The fluid levels in each "plate" will never get high enough to hit the return tubes, it will backflow over the plate below the one with holes

3. Will the reflux coil be hard to regulate? Will give it enough cooling to keep the column from heating up and just blowing steam thru without dropping the output to zero?

4. Seems terribly hard to fabricate for an average builder like me (I’m not saying you couldn’t easily do it though). Just by the drawing it seems you have talent.

I started out with my own design. Image Called it a halo I did. Used a 2" x 3' packed column toped by a 2x2x1 tee. The 1" pipe ran horizontal from the column to a 1x1x1 tee. That tee fed 2 water jackets that ran down hill at a 20 degree angle to another tee that joined them back together on the condensed end. Plumbed in a reflux needle valve and a collection valve. I should have done many things on it differently, made the water jackets bigger mostly. I was told don’t reinvent the wheel. Hind sight is... I should have built one easier to construct with a proven design (which is what I ended up doing).

If you think it will work, give it a go and have some fun. Let us know how it turns out.
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Postby stoker » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:50 am

decoy, which program did you use to make that beauty?

joe, that's a lot of copper, It's too complicated for me to know what it does
-I have too much blood in my alcohol system-
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Postby Guest » Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:32 am

Seems like I saw this somewhere before, but here are my observations:

1. The lower plate in each level doesn't look like its needed. This isn't an EL plate design where liquid falls from the upper plate to the lower plate. It looks like the upper plate is perforated on half its face and is stretched completly across the column. It seems the lower plate would just trap any liqid that came back down the perforated plate. Once the lower plate filled, it would prevent vapor from coming through the perforated plate until enough pressure built up to force the liquid back to the next level.

2. Vapor is going to take the path of least resistance. More vapor is going to travel through the perforations toward the middle of a plate that has less liquid head rather than the edge of the plate which will have more liquid head over them. Not necessarily a bad thing, just something to keep in mind when placing the column at an angle and the elevation you insert the overflow tubes.

3. With small perforations there is a great chance of pluggin off and building a pressure if the still ever boils over and solids become trapped.

4. Looks like it would be a real bitch to clean out.

5. Don't know how stable a column would be if you had to completely saw through it in order to insert a plate all the way across it. I'm assuming the plates are soldered in continuously around because if not, the gap at teh column edge will be your path of least resistance and nothing will travel through the perforations.

6. If the bottom plate is going to have no practical use, why not stand the entire thing back up vertical rather than on a slant and get the full use of a fully perforated face on the upper plates?

Nice drafting job though.
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image?

Postby FAROM » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:54 am

@ Decoy
Hi, with which program you have used for creating the image of the distiller? Thanks, ciao.
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Postby possum » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:33 pm

A very interesting design...

I share two concearns that others voiced, but otherwise the setup looks very practical.

3. With small perforations there is a great chance of pluggin off and building a pressure if the still ever boils over and solids become trapped.

4. Looks like it would be a real bitch to clean out.



you have drafted a multi stage thumper with return lines.

good luck cleaning the excess flux out after you solder it.
again,A very interesting design...
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Postby decoy » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:06 pm

Anonymous wrote:Seems like I saw this somewhere before, but here are my observations:

1. The lower plate in each level doesn't look like its needed. This isn't an EL plate design where liquid falls from the upper plate to the lower plate. It looks like the upper plate is perforated on half its face and is stretched completly across the column. It seems the lower plate would just trap any liqid that came back down the perforated plate. Once the lower plate filled, it would prevent vapor from coming through the perforated plate until enough pressure built up to force the liquid back to the next level.

2. Vapor is going to take the path of least resistance. More vapor is going to travel through the perforations toward the middle of a plate that has less liquid head rather than the edge of the plate which will have more liquid head over them. Not necessarily a bad thing, just something to keep in mind when placing the column at an angle and the elevation you insert the overflow tubes.

3. With small perforations there is a great chance of pluggin off and building a pressure if the still ever boils over and solids become trapped.

4. Looks like it would be a real bitch to clean out.

5. Don't know how stable a column would be if you had to completely saw through it in order to insert a plate all the way across it. I'm assuming the plates are soldered in continuously around because if not, the gap at teh column edge will be your path of least resistance and nothing will travel through the perforations.

6. If the bottom plate is going to have no practical use, why not stand the entire thing back up vertical rather than on a slant and get the full use of a fully perforated face on the upper plates?

Nice drafting job though.


1. i relise i could have just used the top plate but by placing the lower plate it then becomes a bubble cap rather then a perf plate and is more forgiving with lower presures. regardles of the lower plate you still need the same presure once the liquid builds up over the plate..

but once the unit is operational i might try one with just the bubble plate without angleing it..

2. i have thought about the pressure and more would come out the top holes, i was going to play around with less and perhapps smaller holes towards the top of the plate... etc.. good to see you notic3d the same thing i guess i will try somthing there first time around...

3. ok as far as the pressure build up goes there will be a weighted blow of valve similar to presure cookers, which i feel most of you guys should alread have on your stills.

as far as the blocking of the plate holes i would like to hear more on this from other members that run a plate still, my view was that it would be vapour and water that has distilled in the tube only so ther is no blockage.

4. if you are correct with the blocking then cleaning will be an issue..

5. The simplicity to make the column is what i am taking a lot of pride in.
The pipe is cut half way and the plate inserted then held in a length of angle and brased ill do a detailed post after i make one, i dont have acces to the workshop till after after holidays.

6. now that you point that out i will give that a try..

like i said the column is very easy and cheep to make so to make a few veraions to try is easy..

thanks for your creative comments it has reinforced some of my ideas and given me others to consider..
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Postby decoy » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:22 pm

the program i used to draw the still is called rhinoceros 3d
its not hard to use but you need to understand or have some drafting skills and a bit of patience to start..

there sight has tutorialas and i am happy to post up some basic starting points to get you going..

http://www.rhino3d.com/


viewtopic.php?p=18710#18710
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Postby decoy » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:24 pm

i will be tiging the plates into place but i will try brasing it..
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Postby possum » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:28 pm

To avoid boil-over/blockage just put a sloberbox in front. basicallt, I'm advocating mounting this device on top of a thumper. I really like the whole idea of what you'r doing. It may take a little tweaking with each rig to get the tempature gradient just right, but still with alittle work, you may have a winner. Take pride in your design, but dont be affraid to change it as evidence and practicallity suggest.

Again , quite a nice idea.
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Postby decoy » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:40 pm

A "sloberbox in front" can you explain a bit what that is ?

I asume its some kind of expansion chamber that traps and returns solids..

I am open to ideas and comments from people with experiance or ideas and welcome them.
If i wasent prepared to make changes to the design i wouldent have posted here.

Nobody nows evrything but to learn you have to try things your self because its through failure that you learn the most.
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Postby manu de hanoi » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:11 pm

it's hard to have a clue about the discussion since the original pics are gone
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Postby Pikluk » Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:25 am

it's hard to have a clue about the discussion since the original pics are gone


this is why i made this post viewtopic.php?t=5829

maybe i should have posted in this topic?

could they be fused together?
maybe a few more post would fit under this topic too.
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Re: Improvment on Bokakobs Angle Plate Still

Postby Titus-a-fishus » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:10 pm

Hey Decoy
Did you ever end out finding those photos?
We haven't got the money so now we have to think
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Re: Improvment on Bokakobs Angle Plate Still

Postby HyperandDrunk » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:22 am

Man, I'd like to see those pics :\
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Re: Improvment on Bokakobs Angle Plate Still

Postby Condensifier » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:45 am

SpecialHam wrote:Man, I'd like to see those pics :\

Use the HD Google Search link at the top of this page then type in boka or bokakob and it will bring up pages of links to different bokas people have made with plenty of pics in them and lots of information.
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