New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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prdbrissy
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by prdbrissy »

Well you go away for a few weeks and the flute has moved forward a lot.
Congrats OD on the new still. I thought it might have had a flow guage.
My build has stalled while I have been away, I hope to get back into it in a few weeks time. After catching up on reading this new thread i might even introduce single bubble caps to the final build.

Regards to all
My continuing Flute build story is here- http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=19556
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

things are coming together nicely. Good Job
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Good to see there is always a way to do something Usge... :clap: (more than one way to skin a cat)
I marked my 1mm thick disks with an engineers compass, cut close to the line with aircraft snips, clamped the file to the bench, placed a bolt through the center of the disks, put it into a 240 hand drill and spun them onto the file... Took me about 10 - 15 mins to bring them down to the ID of the 4". Really turned out way better than I expected...

For the profiles on the sight glass port, I used a normal Dremel metal cutting disk that had worn a third of the way down. This let me mark and cut the curves very precisely along the template. Remember, from 1 cut I got 2 copper ports, so I could afford to take my time.

The Highland Flute is well under-way, it is being built with the DIY tools I have at hand. If I were building a lot of them I would surely invest in the tools I needed to make the process easier and faster... But atm I am at a hobbyists level and it reflects in my current build. I have not encountered any major crux's in the manufacture of the components, and always said that the plates fitting snuggly to the ID of the 4", were probably the most challenging parts of the build, that and the silver soldering of them. OD will attest to his build of the original Magic Flute with nothing but a propane torch and basic hand tools. Thanks man...

@All New Flute Beginners...
If I can build this design in all its glory, anyone can, but be prepared to spend some cash. As you will no doubt know, this design is not as expensive as the original flute. Gone are 2 of the 4" reducers, the 2" 90° Elbows and the length of 2" for the dephlegmater. Making for a considerable saving on the build...

Looking forward to your continued process on the your build prdbrissy... :thumbup:

Been silver soldering the plate components and sight glasses today, I'll get some photos up soon once I've cleaned them up a bit...

So far everythings going according to plan...
I'll keep you posted, but its Easter, I have a glass of 1YO UJSSM + Ginger Ale and I'm mentoring for an hour or two on HD...

HAPPY EASTER TO ALL ON HD.... :thumbup:
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

Samohon wrote:Been silver soldering the plate components and sight glasses today,
I would suggest that the plate assembly should be soldered together with hard solder, to prevent components becoming unsoldered when heat is applied to solder the plate and downcomers inside the column.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Yeah, its hard silver solder (40%) OD.. Melts at 650°C - 750°C.. I'll use soft solder (350°C) to fix em inside the 4" OD... :thumbup:

Thanks man... Photos soon...
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Manback »

Can we get a final number OD - what did the column cost (AUD) for you to build?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

It works out about the same as the original Flute, where you save by not using the extra reducers and 3"tubing for the graham condenser, you spend the money in extra valves for the plate dissabling system. if you built it without that feature, you would be about $150 cheaper than the original.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

olddog wrote:
Samohon wrote:Been silver soldering the plate components and sight glasses today,
I would suggest that the plate assembly should be soldered together with hard solder, to prevent components becoming unsoldered when heat is applied to solder the plate and downcomers inside the column.
OD
One of the things I used to see my grandpaw do was to use a wet rag to keep other parts from coming unsoldered. He would put a wet rag around one part...solder the other. Doesn't work for everything, but it might get you by here and there.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Haven't used the wet rag yet Usge, came across it on a air-con site... Good tip though... :thumbup: Thank man... :thumbup:
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by W.S.C.beachman »

Question??
Are you guys soldering all the plates and down comers to the inside of the tube? My plan was to make it all fit as snug as posiable. Maybe just go .001" under Id of my tube type of thing.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by LWTCS »

I use the wet rag trick all the time.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

W.S.C.beachman wrote:Question??
Are you guys soldering all the plates and down comers to the inside of the tube? My plan was to make it all fit as snug as posiable. Maybe just go .001" under Id of my tube type of thing.
Yes WSCB, access is available through the hole for the sight glass. The plate and downcomer with bubble-cap, are put in place, level. Cleaned and fluxed, a strip of soft lead free solder is then placed inside the 4" on top of the plate. The heat is then applied to the outside of the pipe and pushed into place with a pencil or a solid graphite pencil. Capillary action then takes over and sweats it to the joint. :thumbup:

I'll be doing this from the bottom up so that each subsequent plate installed seats properly...

I havent got to that stage yet, but thats certainly the theory... OD and KS do it all the time... :clap:
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

My 2" is going to be "really" stripped down/simple...and it won't have sight glasses. So, my plan is to solder each plate/downcomer in sections of tube..which will then be joined via copper unions with center stop so that the downcomer from the one above, just touches the plate below. I plan on using PFTE tape to seal the sections together to start...until I get it dialed in. And then, I'll decide how many plates/sections I want to use...and solder them into their corresponding unions.
If I decide I might want to be able to disable one or more plates on the fly, I'll drill and add that part after I disassemble it. Should be able to reach everything fine doing it that way. On a side note...I got my 4 dollar stainless 3-way ball valves from more beer. Awesome for the money...but not much use I'm afraid for this build. They are 3-way at 90 degrees only. So it will do center left. Or center right. But, not straight through. Doih (my best homer simpson). :wtf:
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by mash rookie »

Hey guys. Been reading this thread, Flute talk, Shinners flute build and the stumpy thread.

Wow so much going on so much brain power. So many ideas.

I have a question.

Plates are usually soldered to the column wall and made permanent.

Many people have expressed their desire to have a removable plate tree.

It has been suggested that a ¼’ raise edge be soldered on the plate if not soldered to the column.

If you used well fitting plates with a raised edge all mounted on a stainless all thread rod would that not allow you to have enough plates to do a one run neutral and a one run whiskey by removing a plate or two?

Or… Build a whiskey tree and a neutral tree ?. ?

Building a flute soon. KS is putting a parts kit together for me. Parts are one thing. Putting it together right is another.

Mash Rookie

EDIT
Just read in flute talk someone was talking about putting packing between plates. Any advantage doing that? Would'nt that just disrupt flow patterns? Or..Fewer plates, more packing, More reflux? Thoughts?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Usge »

Mashrook...can't answer the question about whether or not it will be good enough (OD or Sam can chime in on that one). But, I "can" tell you that the method of pushing a file against the spinning plate mounted in a drill to make plates will inherently make it start to edge up like a penny. It's not a very big edge...but it's a sharp edge and makes a "squeaky" fit inside if you work slow (ie., leave a little material and bring down with the file check fitting as you go). I experienced that trying to make my plates..as the file would start to get worn in one spot..so I was moving it side to side, etc., trying to keep it from sitting in one spot. I filed the small edge off to make my plates flat when I was done. But, it definitely put a raised edge on it if that's what you are after. Mostly, if you work slow with it and check fit often..you can make them fit dang tight. Just make sure you aren't fitting it to the open end...where it's usually crimped in slightly. Make sure you are test fitting it all the way inside the tube — if you make the plate fit just the opening of the tube..it could end up being too small/loose when you push it all the way inside if your outer tube has any sort of edge on it. I took a small piece of tube and filed the opening down so I could easily slide it over my drill mounted disc to check fit it as I went. If you want it tight without a raised edge...just underfit it slightly...and tap it home with screwdriver handle, etc.,
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by mash rookie »

Thanks USGE, I think my mini lathe will work up to 4 inches. we’ll see.

I should be able to get them pretty damn close. I could silver solder sides on them before final lathe turning as well. Equal to the down comer height?

Interested in the concept of being able to remove or add plates to change performance.
Is anybody doing that?
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Mashrook, heres a look at how I would execute a removable Bubble-Plate. Dimensions are ball park figures, but well within range...
Not shown are the SS centre rod, the plated downcomer and 4" pipe... They are to scale with each other... :ewink:
Bubble-Plate.png
10mm for the vapour slots on the cap, 2mm clearance of the cap on the plate and a 20mm weir (Dam)...
This would leave 8mm of distillate for the vapour to bubble through on its way north to do its magic...
The wier (Dam) is an essential part of this component, without it would make the plate in-efficient, but i'd still want those plates damn tight to that 4" pipe...

Hope it helps... :ewink:
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

@ Usge: Yeah, I noticed the same thing with the burrs when I was drill-filing my plates also Usge... The file seemed to get clogged up while milling the disks...
By accident, I put my drill into reverse and it cleaned my file.. :thumbup: Worked out ok in the end man...

Will be great to know the output from your stackable 2" plated flute... :thumbup: Keep it coming...

Dont worry, loads of piccies coming soon guy's... :ewink:
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by W.S.C.beachman »

Cool,
Solder to inside got it....Man O Man my soldering skillzzz are going to have to get a lot better then they are that's for sure. I for see my self getting frustrated....a lot!!! LOL cause I suck at soldering!!!
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by mash rookie »

Sam,
I am getting a parts kit from KS so I am pretty sure they will be drilled plates or ready to drill rather then the bubble cap design.

Will it work if I put a raised side around the plate to hold a determined level distillate?

Even with a pretty tight fit some vapor will pass. Do you think it will function correctly?

I know some pressure must be maintained for the vapor to push through the distillate.

Maybe I should solder all but my top plates and fit them as tight as possible with sides added.

I am a whiskey guy so I am probably going to be pleased as pie to build it as designed and run it like a rocket.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Manback »

Your neutral tree may as well just be a bunch of packing for the column.. just my take on it..
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Kentucky shinner »

as long as you get a good fit there is no need for a wall or to solder all plates. Good fit is the key on the plates.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Samohon »

Kentucky shinner wrote:as long as you get a good fit there is no need for a wall or to solder all plates. Good fit is the key on the plates.
+1.. As KS has stated Mash Rookie, if the perforated plates fit well to the inside of the column, there will be no need to solder the plates. The bubblecap theory calls for either soldering of the plates, or a weir to collect the falling distillate. I'm sure that the kit from KS will be easy to put together, just follow his instructions, its a proven design... :clap:

Seems like ages since I spoke to you KS, hope your doin ok buddy... :thumbup:
Last edited by Samohon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by guittarmaster »

OD and Sam.
With all this extra internal soldering going on with this design, do you find that extra cleaning is necessary to remove the flux flavor, or is the once with water/vin and again with 'scrap' mash enough? Maybe I'm using the wrong flux but it seemed to take forever to get that taste out of my still and it doesn't have all the internal soldering that this does. The brand i've used is Lenux. Just wondering.

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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

The solder and flux that I use is Bernzomatic silver solder, and the flux is water soluble, I like to do two vinegar water cleans, then a sacrificial wash.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

OD, do you hard solder some components before the final silver solder?
this has been an issue in my own mind, what should be hard soldered and what should be soft soldered.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by olddog »

violentblue wrote:OD, do you hard solder some components before the final silver solder?
I try to use soft solder as much as possible, as it has a higher silver content, but where two joints are close together and soldering one could unsolder the other, I will use hard solder on the first, and soft solder on the second. A good example of this is when making a shotgun dephlegmater, I hard solder the shell together and then soft solder the tubes into the shell.


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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Kentucky shinner »

same here OD.. that is exactly how I do it.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by violentblue »

I tried to designed around the problem myself. some copper grommets that were shrink/heat fit together so there was a little mechanical retention. but still in my mind its hard to get around some trouble areas, hard solder will always be needed in some places.
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Re: New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.

Post by Prairiepiss »

olddog wrote: A good example of this is when making a shotgun dephlegmater, I hard solder the shell together and then soft solder the tubes into the shell.
OD
By shell your talking about splitting the 4" and soldering back together? Correct? What about the tubes to the end plates? I am assuming you hard solder the tubes to the plates then drop the assy into the shell and soft solder it in? Does this sound about right? I'm about to start on my shotgun product condenser and this was my plan of attack.
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