iFlute - 3" build

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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Kentucky shinner
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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Kentucky shinner » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:11 pm

that could be a problem. I dont think a standard 1/2 NPT female will be deep enough.. Is there any way you can turn down the shoulder on the thermometer?

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:34 pm

Just went to a welding shop during lunch and priced 2 different hard solders. One was silv aloy 15 and the other was sil fos 15. Looking at the MSDS they both only contain copper silver and phosphorous so they would be safe but damn... The price! They were both in the $150 USD range! I knew they'd be expensive but not that much :!: . I suppose I'll figure out how to do my ferrules with soft solder and be very careful. If anyone wouldnlike to chime in with tips on soldering/brazing the ss304 ferrules to the copper please do. I have no experience with it and would like to headroom those who have.

I'm debating wether to either 1. Solder the ferrules into the sight tubes first and then onto the flute body separately,, or 2. Set it all on once and heat the whole thing and apply solder at once. Thoughts?

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Kentucky shinner » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:40 pm

Check these guys out. They have pretty good prices..I order from them all the time. You really need the good solder to get a good conection from the stainless to copper.

https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/c ... R:5336RGEN" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:20 am

Kentucky shinner wrote:that could be a problem. I dont think a standard 1/2 NPT female will be deep enough.. Is there any way you can turn down the shoulder on the thermometer?
If it's a standard thing I'm sure I can mak wit work, I dunno how much I wanna mod the thermometer though. Maybe I'll find the right fitting In copper or brass and solder it on to a piece of pipe that I can solder on to space it out. Hat way I can "easycast" the opposite flared fitting for it to seal.

As far as the link to welding supply goes, I can't seem to find the hard rod. I did find the flux I read you use though, stay clean liquid? I'll make do with what I have at the moment. I can't justify the $150 with my finances being what they are right now. As a result I gave the fitted ferrules and copper ends to a friend to take to his shop to have them tiggged, I told him "if anyone asks it's for home brewing & wine" since it's popular in the area so I can't imagine anyone asking lot of questions. Worst case if he can't get them tigged with a safe material he said he'd bring me some of the silver brazing rod to try out.

Lastly, the 2x3 reducer got mis-shipped... Dunno when it will be here, tracking page says soon.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Kentucky shinner » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:38 pm

click the link and scroll down to this no. 5336R this is the harris 1/16" hard rods.. they work really well. they are 5% silver. They are also $24.00 per pound.

click here It will save you some money
http://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cg ... 36R||1|510||" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:53 pm

Wow, here I was thinking I was gonna spend 5 times that much... You're a hero KS! I called my buddy about getting the chunks welded and one of the two welders said he wouldn't touch them for fear of messing them up, the other was out on a job site so they havnt been welded yet. He did say I can have a couple sticks of sil fos 15 though, not a total loss.

I'll order the brazing rods after the 1st(payday), with sone new liquid flux to play with.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Prairiepiss » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:13 pm

I just got mine in from the same place. Thanks to KS! Now I just got to get to using it. Got the torches in my van ready for the weekend.
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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:50 pm

Is there a specific flux to use with the rods? I'm sure they take more heat than the low temp soft solder flux I use, what's should I look for? Aldso, what should I get for hat sil fos 15 if I want to use it? I've never done any brazing before and don't quite understand " liquidus or solidus" on the welding sites when it talks about temp range. Also 1500 degrees sounds a little optimistic for my little mapp torch. Sounds like I'll be buying a couple more cylinders.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Kentucky shinner » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:01 pm

If your just soldering copper to copper you wont need any flux. I never use flux with the brazing rods on copper to copper. If I am soldering to stainless I use https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/c ... Silv+White" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. It will take more heat and it will take some time to get hot enough with Mapp but you can do it. When it gets hot enough if will flow very nice and really makes a strong joint. You must get both pieces hot enough and direct most of the heat to the largest piece. I normally use Oxy Accet. but I have used my mapp torch as well.
Good luck, the more you do it the better you will be.
KS

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Mon May 02, 2011 8:18 pm

Got my 2x3" reducer today - aperently it was mis-shipped :thumbdown: ... still waiting on hard solder & flux. :yawn: No new news to report till I get it. I'll be goin' camping over mothers day weekend so probably wont have news till Monday.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Tue May 03, 2011 8:40 pm

Well shoot... after I told somone I ordered hard silver solder a buddy comes up with a pound and a half of harris 15%... just my luck! hopefully I can get some stuff done after I get back from camping! I'll keep y'all updated.

edit: one more thought. anyone think I'd be better suited taking the stainless and copper to work to use axy/aceteline? or will mapp be ok?

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Barney Fife » Wed May 04, 2011 3:40 am

I've done practice pieces of SS to copper with a plain 'ol propane torch, so it can be done. I found I had to tin both pieces after scrupulously cleaning each one, but it worked. An oxy-acetylene setup makes life easier, but it can be done with a simple torch. Using the proper flux is the big key, and I think KS steered you to it already? I forget right now if I had to keep the flame on the SS or the copper, but being so very different in how they absorb heat, you will definitely have to keep the flame on one or the other, but you'll see it right away when you try.

By the way, I've used simple 14 gauge household copper wire(I just stripped off the insulation) to braze copper; I used an acid flux and had both surfaces very clean, but it worked like a champ. I do have an oxy-acetylene setup, though, with an old Dillon Mk III torch(way excellent torch!). You can see my weld in this thread here:http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=20476

Or here...

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by WalkingWolf » Wed May 04, 2011 6:43 am

SS to copper can be a bit tricky but it can be done with patience. This link is a brief rundown on my experience (with pics) I use a MAPP torch.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... s#p6885914

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Wed May 04, 2011 10:11 am

Looks like I've got a couple things to try. I reckon I'll first:
clean & prep everything,
Rough up the stainless,
Question: should I tin with hard solder or soft solder? Does it matter?
Tin both copper and stainless,
Put em together & heat while filling with hard solder.

Hopefully I can try and start practice tonight. I'll post pics if I do.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Wed May 04, 2011 9:20 pm

This stuff is waaaaay hard to work with with my little mapp torch... Super super frustrating. So, I took a step back and approached my heat problem a few different ways and still nothing. I know it's a heat issie because I can braze copper sheet to copper sheet with some trouble, needing to manage heat placement &waiting for the workpiece o warm up. But with what I see that damn copper to stainless is getting the oxy/acetylene treatment at work next week.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Uisge_a_Ghlinne » Wed May 04, 2011 11:23 pm

Some of the issues mentioned here may have to do with the speed at which the material loses heat. One way to deal with this is to build a small hearth using vermiculite blocks and vermiculite granules to keep the heat in the material . Firebricks are no good as they absorb too much heat. Model engineers have been dealing with a lot of these issues for many years; silver soldering many different pieces by using different grades of silver solder and the quick application of heat. Also, for pickling the copper after soldering a very good acid to use is citric acid: readily available, safe and not dangerous.
In the past I have been able to silver solder (hard solder) 54mm copper with propane and careful planning. Once I got hold of Mapp I found that I could braze up to 4 inch with careful preparation.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by WalkingWolf » Thu May 05, 2011 6:41 am

banjo wrote: But with what I see that damn copper to stainless is getting the oxy/acetylene treatment at work next week.
Be careful banjo -- it's not a lack of heat. You'll have plenty of heat with MAPP (or propane for that matter). It's about proper preparation and follow through. As a reminder I keep several of the SS ferrules that I burnt up trying to learn this. Tell us what you did in detail. I can understand the frustration and you feel you have a go-to option at work. On the other hand, it's a really nice accomplishment to finally achieve what has eluded you up to this point -- been there.

good luck

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Thu May 05, 2011 10:00 am

U.A.G: I'm sure youre right about the heat. I struggled for over an hour with multiple attempts & failing, stopping, cleaning, sanding, cleaning, fluxing, failing again. Huge bummer but it was a learning experience. My only success & thin hat taught me ANYTHING was taking two pieces of dirty scrap sheet copper & without cleaning them I clamped them together, heated with no flux, & brazed a seam that I couldn't chisel apart. It told me it was a heat absorption issue(but what do I know).

I put alot of heat energy into that piece but it wasn't enough for my first timer skills. Ill keep at it though.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Thu May 05, 2011 10:44 am

WalkingWolf wrote:
banjo wrote: But with what I see that damn copper to stainless is getting the oxy/acetylene treatment at work next week.
Be careful banjo -- it's not a lack of heat. You'll have plenty of heat with MAPP (or propane for that matter). It's about proper preparation and follow through. As a reminder I keep several of the SS ferrules that I burnt up trying to learn this. Tell us what you did in detail. I can understand the frustration and you feel you have a go-to option at work. On the other hand, it's a really nice accomplishment to finally achieve what has eluded you up to this point -- been there.

good luck

Ok, I first started with dunking the copper in a low solution of muriatic acid and water, let sit until nice and shiny & then rinsed with the garden hose. Took 80 grit sandpaper and sanded the piece & chamfered the edges with a file. Prior to fluxing I rinsed with a spray of automotive brake parts cleaner to remove any surface particles/gunk/hand oils. Went to my 2" stainless ferrule & sanded until a consistent brushed Finnish look was on the mating surface. Cleaned with brake clean again. I fluxxed all mating surfaces with white pase flux for the hard solder, I started by warming the copper in my vice being held by a pair of visegrisps & the placed it on end And then arranged the ferrule so I could beat it in with my deadblow hammer. I beat in he ferrule and was surprised by how much force it took by everything looked ok. I started heating the copper slowly from about 5 inches away and waited... Minutes passed and I moved closer and waited again, the flux still wasn't fluxing! Got right up on it and then saw he flux start cleaning& changin from the white powdery look to liquid, I held the solder stick where I wanted to start the joint and nothing happened. Even after moving closer with the torch it would not change to liquid. It never changed to liquid unless I had the torch and flame on the stick. I put a dab of SOft solder on the joint to wick heat into the hard solder and still nothing... Then I burnt the f-er up agee I lost patience. That's when I moved to the copper sheet experiment.

So what I do wrong?

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by WalkingWolf » Thu May 05, 2011 1:22 pm

First off I want to say that my experience with the "hard" solder on SS/copper went very similar to what you described. The only success I've had with hard solder has been copper to copper with no flux. Secondly, the only flux that I have had success with on SS/copper is the Harris brand liquid flux.

It sounds like the prep work was adequate. In the link I provided I went into detail on how I proceeded. The high heat needed for the hard solder burnt the SS before I could ever get the solder to melt. Once the SS charred you couldn't get anything to stick on it. On the method I used I apply the heat on the copper away from the joint then slowly move the heat towards the joint (if needed) until you hear the flux sizzle when a small dab is applied. Remove the heat and apply a coating of flux -- it should sizzle. I then let it cool down and repeated the process -- two coats of flux. In the case of the copper I fluxed the inside and outside of the tubing. Do the same thing to the SS. Let it cool down then drive in the ferrule if this is what you need to do. Then I made a ring of soft solder that fit snugly around the tubing at the point of the joint. Apply the heat to the copper away from the joint and allow adequate heat up time before you slowly start to move the flame towards the joint -- you should never apply the flame directly to the joint as it will not be needed with the soft solder. At some point you will notice the solder start to melt and be pulled into the joint. Back the heat off a bit if needed to avoid overheating. Take your time and continue to apply the heat and go around the tubing be careful not to go any closer to the joint area. If you get the joint overheated the solder will all just run out and you will have to start over. Keep moving around the tubing until the solder has lost all of its original shape and has been drawn up into the joint and around the base. There definitely is a "touch" that is needed but, with patience, you will be able to achieve this. I found my failures had instilled a dogged determination to get this done.

good luck

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by squidd » Thu May 05, 2011 1:35 pm

Banjo,

A word of caution.

I've read somewhere that brake fluid + welding = phosgene gas, a deadly poison.
You may wish to confirm whether or not it's true, and also if it would apply to soldering.

Acetone should work for cleaning.
Also FWIW, Lennox white flux paste (a zinc compound) has worked well for me, in soldering SS/SS and SS/copper.

squidd

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Thu May 05, 2011 4:22 pm

squidd wrote:Banjo,

A word of caution.

I've read somewhere that brake fluid + welding = phosgene gas, a deadly poison.
You may wish to confirm whether or not it's true, and also if it would apply to soldering.

Acetone should work for cleaning.
Also FWIW, Lennox white flux paste (a zinc compound) has worked well for me, in soldering SS/SS and SS/copper.

squidd
I am familiar with phosgene gas & as far as I know enough of it will kill you but it drops you on your ass as soon as you get a whiff and puts you out of reasonable danger being closer to the floor. Either way I was using brake clean, which is a residue free cleaner that dilutes/displaces oil really well. I'm sure you're right about acetone or any mineral spirits doing the job. Good looking out, I'm not sure Abiut brake fluid and anything else though, I can imagine it happening though.

Wolf- glad to hear I'm not the only one... Kinda messes up my plans for hard soldering the ferrules to make life easier on myself later though. I'll try again with double fluxxing and see what happens with soft solder. Glad I ordered 2 SS 2" ferrules now!

- banjo

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by MacGyver » Thu May 12, 2011 2:41 pm

How is the build progressing Banjo?

I'm looking to build my very first still - in a very similar style to yours and olddogs I'd like to make the system fairly modular, I'll draw up some plans soon. I've still got quite a long ways to go on the bubble plate design. I like the 'no moving parts' design of the bubble plate vs a perforated plate. How did you make your decision? To me a bubble plate is kinda like several inline thumpers stacked vertically instead of horizontally. Do I have my theory right on that?

This site is great!
Mac

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Fri May 13, 2011 9:28 am

MacGyver wrote:How is the build progressing Banjo?

I'm looking to build my very first still - in a very similar style to yours and olddogs I'd like to make the system fairly modular, I'll draw up some plans soon. I've still got quite a long ways to go on the bubble plate design. I like the 'no moving parts' design of the bubble plate vs a perforated plate. How did you make your decision? To me a bubble plate is kinda like several inline thumpers stacked vertically instead of horizontally. Do I have my theory right on that?

This site is great!
Mac
Welcome to the forum Mac. No progress to report yet, got back from camping and was bushed... I did clean my messy garage back up so that I can start work again last night though. I hope to get back to it tonight or tomorrow afternoon. Seasonal allergies and 10 hour days with Saturday make for little working time but I'll get back to it s soon as I can. Can't stop thinking about the damn thing though.
As far as how I chose valve plates: I plan on making 4 different styles, the valves that I've got started, the perf plates, a single large bubble cap, and lastly a reed-style valved tray of my own design. Eventually I may try a atomizer design I've got floating around in my head but I am very ambitious and a my ideas are lofty. My thought is that each plate design will lend itself to a specific style of distillate from vodka to rum or my case grappa. I really Just want my still to be versatile and modular since I have slot to learn yet. I'm hoping I can grow into this thing after it's made, I have no problem admitting my fabricating skills are better than my stillin skills.

As far as bubble cap plates vs thumpers: I've heard that collelation made here numerous times before. They both do the same thing different ways, but in my mind olddogs flute is a little bit more fool-hardy than LCTWS 's humper thumper. One of the reasons I went with a flute vs a humper copy is that I couldn't devise an eay way to make the humper modular for testing - I also forsee it requiring more skill to drive since if you wait too long your abv drops off. Like I said though, I'm no expert, I'm still learning and could be making a large mis-assumption. Im in no way putting down the thumper design (just to make it clear).

Ianywho, I like I said, I hope to get back to the build tonight or tomorrow & will post my success or failure with the SS to copper

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Sat May 14, 2011 8:20 pm

so, here goes... started by cleaning my copper sight port really well & fluxxed the crap out of the inside and edges of the thing, then warmed it up and let it set. took my 3" ferrule to the disc sander and roughed up the edges and mating surfaces really well. used brake clean on it & went back to my copper sight port. heated it again & tinned the entire inside of the thing as shown. waited for it to cool and cleaned any gunk/residual flux again with brake clean & lint free towels. put the two together and heated VERY VERY VERY slowly with an almost non-existant flame on my mapp torch & got all the ugly solder nubbies molten & then pushed down on the whole thing to seat it to the stainless. then went to the side that had the largest gap, applied heat, and filled it in as much as I could. some solder did run out the bottom but i removed heat & waited and came back ERY VERY slowly with heat & continued to fill it. then went around to the rest of the thing & filled the rest untill it seemed like it was full of solder and makng a good clean contact. waited for it to cool & check it out! I dont think it looks bad but my only true concern is that I cant see any spot where the solder bonds to the copper AND the stainless. I filled the whole cavity between the two but am concerned whether or not the copper to SS bond will be air-tight at running temperature of the still. can anyone confirm whether it should look bonded to both materials or not? take a look at the photos I've got & put my mind at ease...

other than that, it looks REALLY REALLY COOL!
Sweet lookin.... Imagine 6 of em!
Sweet lookin.... Imagine 6 of em!
IMG_0123.jpg
IMG_0122.jpg
IMG_0121.jpg
IMG_0120.jpg

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Mr.Spooky » Sun May 15, 2011 3:47 am

" I dont think it looks bad but my only true concern is that I cant see any spot where the solder bonds to the copper AND the stainless. I filled the whole cavity between the two but am concerned whether or not the copper to SS bond will be air-tight "
this hapened to me as well :? its got me VERY nervous :think:
spooky
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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Sun May 15, 2011 9:27 am

Ya spook, I dunno what to make of it. but since we both have the same problem I guess it means 1 of two things... either we both got it wrong & made an easy to make mistake, or we both got it right... I only did one of these last night & I guess after hearing that yours looks the same Ill continue on and do the other five, also wanna get started on my condensers today if things go well with the sight ports.

If somone knows something spooky & I don't chime in!

I'll be back at it this afternooon

-B

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by Mr.Spooky » Sun May 15, 2011 9:35 am

banjo wrote:I only did one of these last night & I guess after hearing that yours looks the same Ill continue on and do the other five.
hahaha,,,,sounds like the blind leading the blind 8) 8) 8)
spooky
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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Sun May 15, 2011 11:25 am

You said it.

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Re: iFlute - 3" build

Post by banjo » Sun May 15, 2011 8:40 pm

ok, Last I posted I was concerned about not being able to see the solder bond to the stainless steel ferrules... Had a welder that normally works with this kind of thing stop by & look at my first two sight ports & he said they look great! He gave me some general pointers and good advise about the fabrication of the whole thing. After he left I finnished my sight ports and came back to my two inch ferrule and pipe that I thought I fried last week(see post above). turns out I didn't! I was able to get it apart with some effort & then ground down some of the ss ferrule since I didnt like such a tight fit inside the pipe. It was still a very tight fit so i heated the nuts out of the thing & slammed the ferrule in it & quenched it in a bucket of water, tapped the ferrule out & did it again. it retained the larger shape after two times & I liked the fit much more. I cleaned the pipe, fluxxed and tinned the inside, cleaned the ferrule & fluxed it, and tapped it home. added some more solder after that from the top & it turned out really nicely. after talking to my welder/metalworker buddy I doubt I'll have any worries(put your mind at ease Spooky!). Also seated all my rivets/valves to the trays, they came out awesome!
all the rivets sit flush to the top of the plate, really happy with how they turned out.
all the rivets sit flush to the top of the plate, really happy with how they turned out.
IMG_0129.jpg
IMG_0128.jpg
2" keg connector ferrule soldered - from the bottom you can see the solder sitting on the top ridge of the ferrule.
2" keg connector ferrule soldered - from the bottom you can see the solder sitting on the top ridge of the ferrule.
IMG_0126.jpg
all of todays work was just getting everything togther.  after all the dickin around and making sure everything was impossibly clean before i started was about 6 hours work
all of todays work was just getting everything togther. after all the dickin around and making sure everything was impossibly clean before i started was about 6 hours work

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