Flute Modification for Vodka

[mash rookie]

Nice work MR.
I'll pencil it in for my column, pending your results with neutral making.
Is the spigot for the take off at the bottom of the top plate, or at the top of the downcomer? Does it take the "exess" from the top plate, or does it drain the plate?

I placed the drain slightly above the plate. 1/4". It should be able to take almost everything but not collapse it. The valve is located near the bottom plate so that the line will fill with fluid first and offset vapor pressure. Fluid empties in to the middle of the first chamber.

I am going to increase the line size. I dont like to use any brass so I have been looking for a stainless valve. I think I have found a 3/8" npt valve on Grainger that will work.
I threaded some 1/2 copper (5/8"od) with 3/8 npt. That will allow me to screw the pipe directly into the valve reducing the amount of fittings needed.

Once I nail down the size needed to function perfectly fittings can be soldered to the exterior so that plate trees can still be removed when necessary.

I think I am going to try some R&D down this road and a 6 plater also.

Hang on just a little and I will get us a little closer KS. I am very pleased with the first results but want to do a little more before I make a strong recommendation. I do think it will make a huge difference on your five or six plater. I knocked up twenty gallons of Birdwatchers yesterday so the next tests are a couple of weeks away. That gives me time to find the valve and fittings I want to use.

MR

[Kentucky shinner]

I have a customer that just emailed me. He ran his 6 plater with one of my 2 plate add ons. He says he achieved 96% ABV for a very nice neutral. Here is a pic he sent me of his rig. I must say another very happy customer.. that makes me a very happy man.
KS

[Bushman]

I have a customer that just emailed me. He ran his 6 plater with one of my 2 plate add ons. He says he achieved 96% ABV for a very nice neutral. Here is a pic he sent me of his rig. I must say another very happy customer.. that makes me a very happy man.
KS

Now that is what I call a dedicated area for stilling!

[LWTCS]

Now that is what I call a dedicated area for stilling!

Yeah.... Too bad the dude didn't mask off the floor.. Woulda looked real tight then.

Nice lookin still

Can he talk about take off speed KS ?

[mash rookie]

I have a customer that just emailed me. He ran his 6 plater with one of my 2 plate add ons. He says he achieved 96% ABV for a very nice neutral. Here is a pic he sent me of his rig. I must say another very happy customer.. that makes me a very happy man.
KS

Beautiful rig. Even if I am able to drastically improve a four plate flute nothing will match having that many plates. I like the add on concept KS. A guy could stack as many sections or remove them for what type booze he wanted to run. Nice work.

[Odin]

KS,

Why not put a standard 4 plate on top of your new 6 plate?

Odin.

[acfixer69]

I have a customer that just emailed me. He ran his 6 plater with one of my 2 plate add ons. He says he achieved 96% ABV for a very nice neutral. Here is a pic he sent me of his rig. I must say another very happy customer.. that makes me a very happy man.
KS

KS
Did your customer say what the wash was? I got a 4 plus 3 =7 plate going on 10 for neutrals .

Thanks AC

[mash rookie]

Okay guys. I put my plate tree back in yesterday and changed the drain plumbing. I now have two plugs on the back where the 3/8" tubing was. Sexy girls back side is not as sexy as she once was.

I got a 3/8" IP stainless ball valve from Grainger for $36. I re-plumbed my drain with 1/2 copper pipe. The 5/8 od takes a 3/8" NPT thread good enough to thread directly in to the ball valve without extra fittings. I used the same technique for the inlet tube on the column. Threaded a piece of pipe, drilled and taped the column. I placed it closer to my cooling plumbing so it will fit in my box again.

The larger line should allow me to collapse the top plate and or flood the lower plate. We will see how much re-circulation I can produce and keep proper function. My Birdwatchers is fermenting for the next test. I already know that it will affect taste in a positive way. If it comes out real clean we have a winner and I will post a strong recommendation.

For those of you paying attention I have another still modification that should affect purity. Not everybody will be able to do this one.
I can. Partialy inspired by LW's thumper. Mostly inspired considering packed columns I wondered how much if any distillate is being returned to the boiler under full reflux as this would be counter productive. We have trap at the bottom of our plate trees. Is that returning Distillate to the wash? Looking at Ozones thumper ball gave me this idea. (I have no idea how his works, way over my head)

Here it is. I have a large opening in my keg. I am going to hang a stainless steel bowl from the lid. It will set above the wash level and catch any distillate and keep it from returning to the wash during full reflux mode. Like LW's thumper when allowed to continue up distillate should be purer. Sorry small hole guys. you will have to build a thumper to set your column on.

MR

[emptyglass]

Would it be easier to add a sight glass so as to veiw the j cup?

[LWTCS]

Sorry small hole guys.

Jesus H.,,,,,mental imagery is bad,,very bad.

Good luck with that MR. Can ya put together a diagram?

Keep in mind that a big ole VM may not return any alcohol back to the boiler....But our short little 3-6 platers likely return a bunch.

[mash rookie]

Would it be easier to add a sight glass so as to veiw the j cup?

That is an interesting idea that would tell us more about how our flutes run. Hell, I am drilling holes all over my sexy girl anyway.

I considered how to determine if the bowl collects liquid and or how much. Different still heads will run differently. I think a boiler site glass would just be fogged and a dip stick would be wet from vapor. Maybe a float? No solid idea yet. I am open for suggestions.

I have a small port on my boiler for my thermometer that may point directly to the bowl. I could pull the thermo and push in a dip stick without disrupting operation. As it would also be exposed to vapor and likely wiped of by the cork being pulled out It would have to be something that changed color when liquid contacted it. Or?? Any ideas?

Electrical probe? Makes contact and turns on a led in liquid?

[emptyglass]

Hey, I dont know how to run one of these flutes, but as I plan to soon, I'll throw this out there,

If there was fluid above the top of the downcomer on the bottom plate, would it be reasonable to assume that fluid is going down the tube, back to the boiler?

Might have to shine a torch in the sightglass??

My thoughts is a sightglass in the boiler, depending on its exact placement, would be washed clean by condensate and splashing. Can you make a "screw-in" sightglass for your probe fitting/hole?

[mash rookie]

If there was fluid above the top of the downcomer on the bottom plate, would it be reasonable to assume that fluid is going down the tube, back to the boiler?

BINGO!
All the thinking early on the flute threads discussed having the trap to stop vapor from going up. It stands to reason that liquid is splashing into the tube. Once the level is greater than the J return height fluid will return to the boiler.

Achilles heel for the flute design? Why even have a down comer tube on the first plate?
It does not make any sense to put distilled alcohol back into the wash. It isn’t going to get any better. You just have to continually boil it from the wash.

On mine I have a solution by adding the bowl it is like a thumper catching it before it dilutes into the wash. Like adding a thumper or plates I bet dollars to donuts that my ABV will jump.
It is also the obvious answer to why I was not able to flood my lower plate with my drain valve.

On another boiler I would open the site glass and put a copper cap over the downcomer to stop distillation loss into the boiler.

Every day is a new adventure.
MR

[LWTCS]

Why even have a down comer tube on the first plate?

Just gotta have some kind of way to drain back in case of an emergency type situation.
Thats what the over sized first plate does....Can hold enough liquid to prevent draining alcohol back and also prevent water from draining back to further dilute the boiler charge and still offer enough capacity to handle water that may get cycled down from the plates above during the 100% reflux period....the drain is auxiliary.

Did I say that correctly?

[rad14701]

The only fly in the ointment is the fact that the water has to go somewhere and that's either back into the boiler or into the final product... And considering how the bottom plate is the busiest it at the very least would need a variable downcomer or drain...

Quiz for all the flute guys... Does the bottom plate experience a vapor/liquid collapse with the contents draining back into the boiler or does the increasing vapor temperature in the boiler force it up to the next plate...??? I think we all know the logical answer...

[LWTCS]

well er uh,,, during the run ,,the water can push to the next plate level... but with the sweet spot heat adjustment found,,we can exploit latent heat of evaporation principals and minimize the amount of water at the top of the apparatus.

[Kentucky shinner]

I have found that if you can find the sweet spot on your heat. you can almost keep the plates pretty even until you start running out of alcohol. At that time the plates will start to shut off from the bottom and work there way up. I think it is the increase in vapor temp.
what do you think is happening RAD?

[LWTCS]

At that time the plates will start to shut off from the bottom and work there way up.

I believe this behavior is also exemplified and telegraphed to the business end of your still by the "sweet spot" dephlegmater adjustment,,,, that in essence shuts down or greatly reduces output when all of your useable alcohol has been collected.....

[Kentucky shinner]

At that time the plates will start to shut off from the bottom and work there way up.

I believe this behavior is also exemplified and telegraphed to the business end of your still by the "sweet spot" dephlegmater adjustment,,,, that in essence shuts down output when all of your useable alcohol has been collected.....

I do agree my friend. I left that out.. yes that is very true. you must get both tuned just right.
Mike

[mash rookie]

"Just gotta have some kind of way to drain back in case of an emergency type situation."

I cant imagine what a emergency situation would be. Over flooding? Turn down the power and produce less vapour.

“Does the bottom plate experience a vapor/liquid collapse with the contents draining back into the boiler or does the increasing vapor temperature in the boiler force it up to the next plate...??? I think we all know the logical answer.”

Illogical question captain Kirk. Vapor can not collapse. Rising temps in the boiler will not force additional liquid or vapour up.

Two things we know for sure. (1) Rising temperatures in the boiler only reflect the existing ABV content. (2) Additional power will increase vapor speed but not temperature, held at a constant power input boiler temperatures may rise but alcohol evaporation will slow or stop.

“The only fly in the ointment is the fact that the water has to go somewhere and that's either back into the boiler or into the final product”

After observing plate go dry when alcohol is depleted I would argue that when held at an optimal temperature water and high temp alcohols (tails) would remain at each plate level until the higher (lower temp) alcohols have been removed. (collected)

My conclusion. Flutes are probably run too hard. That is why tails are smeared into the hearts. If the bottom plate was not draining into the boiler and power set to run at the correct vapor speed to keep all plates functioning they would produce a cleaner product relative to their plate count.

"but with the sweet spot heat adjustment found,,we can exploit latent heat of evaporation principals and minimize the amount of water at the top of the apparatus." My point exactly.

I will, test my theories and modifacations. Thanks for chiming in guys.

MR

My browser is so screwed up now that I cant even add a smilly face.

[mash rookie]

Damn you guys post faster than me. Now I am going to have to read and respond.....

[LWTCS]

Drain needed because I flooded my 7 liter thumper MR. And it scared the shit outta me....

100% reflux,,,,low heat and not collecting,,or so I thought......Then she just went willy nilly and filled the 600ml jar I had set under the discharge in about 2 seconds......I could barely move fast enough......coulda got ugly really fast.

[Kentucky shinner]

I dont experience smearing of tails in the hearts when I run. I dont push it really hard though. I can run a gallon per hour and when my product starts to get to tails the stream just starts slowing down. If I just leave it alone it will actually slow to a drip. No smearing at all. With that being said I have run mine enough that I have found the sweet spot. I run it the same everytime. Going to electric has made this much easier.
Just my experience.
KS

[LWTCS]

Correction:
10 quarts pot prior to the drain installation.

[mash rookie]

I dont experience smearing of tails in the hearts when I run. I dont push it really hard though. I can run a gallon per hour and when my product starts to get to tails the stream just starts slowing down. If I just leave it alone it will actually slow to a drip. No smearing at all. With that being said I have run mine enough that I have found the sweet spot. I run it the same everytime. Going to electric has made this much easier.
Just my experience.
KS

KS, That is exactly what this thread is about. My four plate, your six plate will not make Vodka. Why? because they pull tails through with the hearts. Flavor congeners that are present in the higher boiling point alcohols. Heavy flavors. Even run slow you collect very little tails at the end. Why? Because they have already been collected with the hearts. Great for whiskey and rum but not so good for neutral.

That is what I call smearing. That is the issue I endeavor to solve with our flutes.

MR

[Kentucky shinner]

I disagree with the smearing theory. I get some very very good neutral. I do get very little tails but it is because it has been separated by the dephlegemator. I have several customers running 6 platers for neutrals and as far as I know they are very very happy with theirs.
did you use bubble caps or perforated plates? I just dont remember. I do know that the stills I have built with bubble caps will not make nuetral. I have run 3 of them and I am just not a fan of the bubble cap plates. Just my personal preference.
Rob Sherman at Vendome tells me they get a much higher ABV from perf plates than buble caps. They build several stills with perforated plates.
This is a interesting thread you have going here.
KS

[Kentucky shinner]

Why even have a down comer tube on the first plate?

Just gotta have some kind of way to drain back in case of an emergency type situation.
Thats what the over sized first plate does....Can hold enough liquid to prevent draining alcohol back and also prevent water from draining back to further dilute the boiler charge and still offer enough capacity to handle water that may get cycled down from the plates above during the 100% reflux period....the drain is auxiliary.

Did I say that correctly?

I am thinking maybe a good addition would be a external drain coming of the J-tube on the bottom plate. remove the water so it does not go back into the boiler?
what do you guys think good or bad Idea?

[The Baker]

Let me say again that my understanding of these stills is sketchy at the best, and that I use a pot still.

But I still have this vision of a fractionating still (my use of the term) with plates of some sort, that can be brought to a condition where it is fully refluxing; and then product can be drawn off at EACH plate, the best at the top and water at the bottom.

This at least fits in with that idea.

[LWTCS]

Hi KS
I hope I'm not muddling up this thread by making references to my still. But my rig has external downcomers at all of the plate levels.
And at all ponits during the run, my first (biggest) plate will always hold porportionately more alcohol by volume than what is in the boiler. Even after water starts to accumulate within the first plate/chamber, the abv will always remain higher than a fresh (typical) boiler charge. So at any point during the run, my column section is always fed with abv that is always higher than the primary could hope to supply .

[emptyglass]

Not knowing myself how a flute works,
but isnt the return of distallate to the boiler central to how reflux works? (re-boiling of distalate)


MR... If I run my pot too hard, I get smearing big time. Pretty standard with a pot, but I believe it happens when I put too much heat in too early, it seems to heat up all the bad guys, they come through.
Is this a possibility with a plated column?
That is, can there be a balance found at a lower heat, and probably less dephlag cooling, and run the whole rig a bit slower? Might give the plates a bit more time to do their job?

Let me say again that my understanding of these stills is sketchy at the best, and that I use a pot still.

But I still have this vision of a fractionating still (my use of the term) with plates of some sort, that can be brought to a condition where it is fully refluxing; and then product can be drawn off at EACH plate, the best at the top and water at the bottom.

This at least fits in with that idea.

Maybe you and I are thinking of a good old cracker, Baker.