Emptyglass flute build.

[emptyglass]

THE GOAL:
To make good whiskey. Faster than my current 2" pot set up.

SPECS:
50 litre SS keg boiler, gas fired. 3 ring china burner, with adjustable regulator, gauge in Kpa.

4" diameter column, 5 plates, 33 (ish) inches high.

Deflagmater- 6 (ish) inches long. 7 x 3/4" tubes.

Condensor- Not compleatly sure yet. Probably graham style, possibly worm and bucket.

OTHER:
If current talk/experiments with plate isolation plumbing work out for neutral production, this may also be added (if only I can catch up with the theory before I finnish it )
Most of it will be made from re-claimed copper, exept the column itself. If you see green vertigree, dont sweat, it will all be etched off.
I am not sure of upload limits on the site, pics ok so far, but pdf's are not my talent. Can email pics if you want better ones.
Multiple posts can be expected

Late night posts will probably have terrible spelling.

Got a few ideas in mind, more than likley, I'll be getting ahead of myself. You will see them when I get that far along.I'm sure you'll see places i'm going wrong., things I've forgotten, or didn't know.

Anyway, heres progress so far.

[Odin]

Looking great, Emptyglass. Continue and your glass will not stay empty!

Odin.

[emptyglass]

Heres the first idea. I thought I'd throw it out there.

Its sort of based on the theory that most of the liquid runs through the centre of the plate.

Its a hybrid downcomer with the smile of a weir. It should send most of the liquid arround, not through.

Please excuse the crudity of the mock up, but you should get the idea. It probably should be above the plate a little more.

Maybe a "dam" could be added to recieving plate, possibly a peice of 1 1/2 tube cut in half, so a semicircle, with slots

[emptyglass]

Looking great, Emptyglass. Continue and your glass will not stay empty!

Odin.

Thanks mate.

The old pot does a pretty good job of keeping the glass full.
I feel like me and my pot had good times, but when I told her I've fallen for another, more sexy one, that puts out more, she hasn't talked to me since.

I told her we could get togther now and then if she liked, she wasn't totally negative to that idea. We might brew together again down the track.

Until then, I'm wining and dining my new flute project.

[DAD300]

I think I get it...these will be hung on tree by center hole?

The large hole on the left is for next downcomer and the downcomer sticking up will be the dam for that plate.

I like the smiley pipe cut idea, but do you want to throw it towards the wall? Don't know...

[emptyglass]

Yes, they will be hung on the tree.

Hole on left is for the downcomer for that plate.

The tube on the right is coming down from the plate above. This is where I'm thinking of the "dam", or modified cup if you like. It would be attached to the right side of the plate, arround the tube in the pic.
The dam could be any length, and the ends could finnish in such a way as to not send everything arround.

I'm leaning towards just cutting a couple of slots on the bottom most point to allow a little fluid through the middle, but lifting the tube a bit higher than pictured shuold do the same thing.

There should be a sweet spot. Maybe the angle on the bottom of the downcomer could be changed, height above plate, and so on, to achieve a good spread.

At the end of the day, downcomers and cups work. I can at least remove the tree and retro fit it with square ended tubes and cups, but I think it might be worth a try.

[rad14701]

emptyglass, what is the diameter of the holes in your perforated plates...??? They look a bit large, but maybe it's just the camera angle playing tricks...

[emptyglass]

3/16"/5mm by 32 of them.

They are coutersunk fairly deep one side, lightly de-burred other side. The countersunk side will face down, if I don't stuff it up and solder them the wrong way.
I took pictures of the bottom side, as the top side is still covered in layout stain.

OD sugessted 30 holes at 3/16, 32 just worked with the way I layed it out. I'm hoping I will have enough heat and vapor to keep the liquid on them.

30 @ 3/16" gives 0.8287 square inch per plate, 32 gives 0.8838"sq. I don't know if the bit extra will give a bit more take off or not- heres hoping.
Another flute (can't remember who's) had 0.078" (2mm) holes by 165 of them. That gave 0.8044"sq.

And I noticed my first stuff up, I meant to leave the 3/4" hole out of one plate for the bottom. Oh well.

He who makes no mistakes, makes nothing.

Edit; I think its Dans flute with 165 holes.

[emptyglass]

Next idea,

This one concerns the level of fluid on the plate/s. It seems that between 10 and 20mm is about right.

Because I know diddly about these flutes, I'm thinking of setting the height of downcomers above the plate at 10mm, with a sliding collar 10mm long, being a neat sliding fit on the top of the downcomer. That would give a "range" of 10 to about 19mm. Longer collars could be made if necassary.

If, when up and running, I'm not happy or just want to mess with the thing, I could slide the collar up and down for best effect.

I hope I've painted a good enough picture with words for you to imagine what I mean.

My motivation for this, is I feel that the ABV would be affeced. How much by I don't know. It could also help if I'm having trouble keeping fluid on the plates, just got a feeling in my goolies about that one, no facts. I think I need the flute players thoughts on this...

Again, this mod would not be hard to do and not hard to make pemanant, but would the effort be worth it?

[Odin]

Empty glass,

OD tried this. He has got an outspoken opinion on doing this extra job ...

Odin.

[emptyglass]

Thanks Odin.

The inspiration came from concern that I may have put too many holes in my plates. Rad got me thinking.

[NcHooch]

EG, you may be in uncharted territory so to speak...
I dont recall reading any build threads with 3/16" holes in the perf plates . most were in the 1/16-1/8" range.
Could work just fine tho.

Keep up the good work

[emptyglass]

Well, if thats the case, I'm happy to take a hit for the team.

It's only the tree. Whats done is done, I hope it wont send me backwards.

Anything i have learnt here has come at the expense of others time and hard learnt lessons, I may as well contribute.


If height = purity and diameter = volume, I figure you cant squeze more out if you dont go big bore (more surface area through the plates). I've got the heat input available. I just hope it works that way.

If these girls can make whiskey at 90+%, and dilution is needed for oaking, I figure theres room to up the take off rate. I guess there will be a drop in ABV doing this, but I reckon thats good for whiskey making.
That, and the possibilty of using plumbing for plate bypass for neut, may mean I can also make a neut that will still be as good as the ol' boka, maybe not as good as could be done in a plated column, but still good enough for me.

A 2 trick pony, perhaps.

[The Baker]

If the holes seem to be too big, how would it be if you laid some stainless mesh circles on top of the plates?
With maybe a couple of stainless screws through some holes if needed to hold the mesh flat...
Just for fun; it might effectivly 'make the holes smaller'.

[olddog]

Big mistake on my part: I advised you 3/16" it should have been 3/32" I apologise, it's all my fault


OD

[emptyglass]

Should I continue with these plates?

I can always swap them out later, but it would be shame to waste work and solder (I use the 45% stuff, $$).

Big mistake on my part: I advised you 3/16" it should have been 3/32" I apologise, it's all my fault


OD

It will take more than that to make me cry.

30 holes at 3/32" = 0.207 square inch.
32 holes at 3/16" = 0.884 square inch.
I got 4 times more area.
Do you think these plates can be made to work?

I could modify them, but I'd prefer to toss them and start over than live with them modified.

[olddog]

Should I continue with these plates?

I would start again. Sorry about the mistake.


OD

[sammybear]

could he not go for a valved plate? they seemingly work with bigger holes.

heck, he even countersunk one side, it is almost made for valved plates

[rad14701]

Another idea... I have mentioned several times the idea of adjustable perforated plates... This might be a good time to try them if you are son inclined, emptyglass... If you are using a SS rod to space the plates on the tree you would simply enlarge the downcomer hole on another plate or make it into a slot, sandwich two plates together, and use a wire gauge to make adjustments to the elliptical openings... Then you have an wide range of orifice size from zero to 3/16"... Even if you make a few new plates it would be nice to have someone actually try this method to see if it works... You can even use a calculation to determine the area of the resulting elliptical holes formed by the two plates...

Just a thought...

[emptyglass]

I was looking at that option Rad.

I will have to rotate the plates about an inch at the circumference to get them to close compleatly, but only 1/4" to get almost zero.
This is due to the "star" patten.

It would not have to close compleatly anyway.

Would be nice to be able to adjust them on the fly. That could get trickey.

[rad14701]

Yeah, do to the pattern of the holes you may need to rotate a ways and you'll have various hole sizes as a result, but I think you should still be able to find an optimal setting...

[squidd]

Maybe lay your plates down on a sheet of aluminum on a hot plate, fill the oversized holes with lead-free solder, and redrill ?

squidd

[emptyglass]

Rockchucer, I was going down the path of not using traps, and modding the bottom of the downcomer so hopefully theres no problem there, but on the other hand, if the plates were adjustable, I could risk making too many modifications to the design.

If it starts behaving badly, I may not be able to get it running without serious work.

As for the plates sealing, one plate should be fixed and not move- this would seal the column.
The moving or adjustable plate could be a little smaller so it dosn't touch the column, and could have a curved slot to allow for the downcomer.

If you use a bandsaw/hacksaw to cut them out and not snips and a sharp drill, they should stay flat.
I had no trouble keeping them flat, they should seal well enough between (I hope )

I will have to make another 5 if I want all plates to be adjustable.

I'm mucking around with the sight glasses at the moment, back to the plates after that.


Squidd, its more trouble than its worth. If that was the only copper I had, well thats different.

[olddog]

An easy fix for those plates would be to get a heap of copper rivets, and turn them into valve plates.


OD

[emptyglass]

Lots of ideas now.

OD, I had also thought of valved plates, but I don't know if thats what I want. Do they perform well on this scale?

I have even thought about itty-bitty bubble caps, but I want this project done while I'm still alive. Making all those caps would take a while. 32 hole x 5 plates = 160 bubble caps

[olddog]

I built this column for forum member Dolikeadrink, it has valve plates on the bottom section, and perforated plates in the upper section, it worked really well.

OD

[emptyglass]

I'm afraid that any play between plates will allow steam to pass negating the adjustability.

I'm hearing you. I got the plates sitting pretty flat. I can face them off in the lathe if need be.

Given that the (proposed) adjustment would go to next to nothing, and bybass between the plates would at least be consistant for that particular plate, possible bypass could be allowed for and adjusted accordingly.

Well thats what I'd be banking on.

[mash rookie]

I have considered this idea about being able to adjust plates internally for reflux changes and basic overall control of fixed plates. The solution eludes me. I am now more considering how the recycle reflux can be manipulated to change between running whiskey and changing for neutral runs. Modifications to existing designs or fresh reflux idea designs?
MR

[emptyglass]

MR, I can make it adjustable. That parts easy (sort of), just do what Rad said. But that involves pulling the tree for any changes, and at this piont, I really only want one product.

Now getting it to be adjustable on the fly is a real trick. Now we make sour mash in the morning, vodka in the evening (or the other way round if you want)
1. Anything in the vapor path has to be SS or copper.
2. It must not unduly disturb whats going on on the plates.
3. It has to both hold the setting and be able to repeat that setting.
4. It has to seal without flour paste.

The ammount of ideas I've had has been distracting. Ideas are cheap, time is expensive.
Through the top with shafts and eccentrics...
In from the side with a ss olive compression fitting...
Hole in the sight glass...then something...
They are the top runners, but each one won't cover all 4 issues above.

I'm thinking OD wins this one. A bag of rivets and I'm rock and rolling.

[emptyglass]

Made some progress on the glasses while upper management makes an executive decision on the plates.