Batch Modified Barbet Still

[blond_chap]

Cheers Crow, I'd be happy to run a demo for some SA guys (once I work out how to run it properly that is).

[thecroweater]

That's cool I won't be back for a while yet, I'll be stuck in this frozen hell hole mean time

[googe]

Well done blondie, take no prisoners mate

[manu de hanoi]

please dont put Barbet's name on that still. If just because it's not continuous and that's what Barbet was about. But it's also different on many other points.

- Vapor will blow the small syphon on the 1st plate and enter the rectif because the path is much less resistant than going through the n plates.
- Even if you had a huge siphon (about the same height than the distill column) you'd still be wasting energy by returning that reflux from the rectif column to the 1st plate of the distill column. Reflux of the rectif must be returned to the TOP of the distill column.
- If you dont want hell when controlling the device use LM or VM ports instead of these 2 CMs

Read Barbet's manual chapters about distillation to improve your future designs, his explanations about reflux are the best i've ever read.
http://www.fairesagnole.eu/page60/files ... et.pdf.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[thecroweater]

@ Manu not sure where you get the idea that a barbet still can only be ran as a continuous still. its my understanding that the Finnish whiskey distillery "Rajamaki (among others) ran this still as a batch still from around 1919 or at least by 1923 till about 1994
you may or may not have noticed the terms "Batch Modified" as part of the threads description

[manu de hanoi]

@ Manu not sure where you get the idea that a barbet still can only be ran as a continuous still. its my understanding that the Finnish whiskey distillery "Rajamaki (among others) ran this still as a batch still from around 1919 or at least by 1923 till about 1994
you may or may not have noticed the terms "Batch Modified" as part of the threads description

modified beyond recognition perhaps? If you modify a Barbet still to make it batch then you get another design that existed long before barbet or likely worse as shown in the design above.
Illustration : Engine modified motorbike:

Do you have references about those finnish barbet stills ? I've never seen a picture of a real barbet still. I dont think he was a still builder at all, but just a consultant/designer. Maybe something built with Savalle ?

[emptyglass]

Good stuff Blondie.
Its always good to see a new still born. Well done. Payoff time.

And a pretty good review from Manu, hes not usually as nice as he is here

Hey there Manu,

[thecroweater]

Sorry for going off topic here a bit blondie
No i don't think so Manu, I think the still was made if not by him then under his instruction. The same government owned company also ran a ten fold savalle still and a guillaume rectifer along with some spice still and later pots Photo's are very hard to get I read that the still was or could be ran like a lomond still
yes it maybe simplified somewhat but I don't think your velocipede analogy is very accurate either

[manu de hanoi]

Sorry for going off topic here a bit blondie
No i don't think so Manu, I think the still was made if not by him then under his instruction.
built for him by Savalle I meant
The same government owned company also ran a ten fold savalle still and a guillaume rectifer along with some spice still and later pots Photo's are very hard to get I read that the still was or could be ran like a lomond still
So we dont really know what design it was

yes it maybe simplified somewhat but I don't think your velocipede analogy is very accurate either
it's not simplified it's destroyed to be plain clear. It took me hours to figure out the Barbet design and i m probably the one who understands it best around here - because I read Barbet's comment in french and built continuous stills based on his designs . The only thing in common is 2 columns . A coffey still has 2 columns too.

[blond_chap]

Sorry for going off topic here a bit blondie

No worries mate, discussion is what we're here for

Hey manu, first off thanks for replying, I appreciate your input. I'll just step through each of your points:

please dont put Barbet's name on that still. If just because it's not continuous and that's what Barbet was about. But it's also different on many other points.
I'm not at all bothered what it's called, I put that as the title because it's where I got the idea for using a 2nd RC to provide reflux to the first column. I know that they're very different, even beyond the batch vs continuous thing. More often than not I call it pippy long stockings because I think the columns look like pigtails.

- Vapor will blow the small syphon on the 1st plate and enter the rectif because the path is much less resistant than going through the n plates.
Nope, it doesn't. I've run it in both modes, when the valve at the top is directed straight to the PC, there is no vapour entering the 2nd column at all, there is liquid above the cap. When the valve is directed to the 2nd column the force of the returning reflux prevents the bypass, this is shown when I've got full reflux in the 2nd column and the liquid level on the plates above the return is maintained

- Even if you had a huge siphon (about the same height than the distill column) you'd still be wasting energy by returning that reflux from the rectif column to the 1st plate of the distill column. Reflux of the rectif must be returned to the TOP of the distill column.
I'm well aware that it would be more efficient to return to the top of the column, if you can suggest a way to do this I'd love to hear it. I looked into it but found it would either require: an expensive and potentially dangerous hot ethanol pump or locating the 2nd column above the 1st (which would defeat the point). Though the current setup isn't as efficient as it could be, it's looking to fill my needs nicely.

- If you dont want hell when controlling the device use LM or VM ports instead of these 2 CMs
Thanks for the advice, I'm playing around with the CMs for now, but I'll look at LM or VM if it proves to be too difficult

Read Barbet's manual chapters about distillation to improve your future designs, his explanations about reflux are the best i've ever read.
http://www.fairesagnole.eu/page60/files ... et.pdf.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Thanks for the link, might have to draw on my highschool french

It's not simplified it's destroyed to be plain clear. It took me hours to figure out the Barbet design and i m probably the one who understands it best around here - because I read Barbet's comment in french and built continuous stills based on his designs . The only thing in common is 2 columns . A coffey still has 2 columns too.
Mate, with respect, I haven't destroyed anything, I've built a batch still and attempted to explain my line of thinking. Yes a coffey still has 2 columns, but it has 1 Reflux condenser and isn't where my idea came from so I didn't put that as the thread title. I apologise if the title bothers you, feel free to ask a mod to rename it "Batch Modified Pippy Long Stockings

I appreciate your comments, happy to discuss further.

[manu de hanoi]

- Even if you had a huge siphon (about the same height than the distill column) you'd still be wasting energy by returning that reflux from the rectif column to the 1st plate of the distill column. Reflux of the rectif must be returned to the TOP of the distill column.
I'm well aware that it would be more efficient to return to the top of the column, if you can suggest a way to do this I'd love to hear it. I looked into it but found it would either require: an expensive and potentially dangerous hot ethanol pump or locating the 2nd column above the 1st (which would defeat the point). Though the current setup isn't as efficient as it could be, it's looking to fill my needs nicely.

topsflow magnetic gear pumps cost about 160 USd.

[blond_chap]

Cheers mate, I'll be interested in looking into these further.

From what I can find, the internal materials in these pumps are:
- Ryton (Polyphenylene sulfide)
- Viton (a kind of synthetic rubber)
- Brass; and
- Ceramic ferrite magnet.

I'll need to do some research on Ryton and Viton (a quick look on Ryton seems to say it won't be damaged in hot ethanol, not sure about whether it would leach though: http://www.cpchem.com/bl/rytonpps/en-us ... Chart.aspx).
Viton seems to have a reasonable resistance to ethanol, but is very vulnerable to acetone, would probably need to replace the o-rings with PTFE.

The other issue is whether the pump will handle the small flow rates required, also whether there is a fire risk in running it.

[thecroweater]

hey BC i have some files on this PC somewhere that I think give specific results of synthetics at different temps in all the normal compounds usually associated with distillation, I'm sure its a pdf file so i wont know how to copy it but i can look into it for you . Vitron is included I'll have to check on ryton (yrs since I looked at it properly)

[googe]

http://www.coleparmer.ca/Chemical-Resistance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[blond_chap]

Cheers crow, that'd be great if you could find those.

Thanks Googe, yeah, I'm not at all comfortable with the Vitron, rubber that's very sensitive to acetone.

[wv_cooker]

Yep not only acetone but furfural and pretty much all the lower point alcohols aren't very friendly to Viton. I did see a couple geared pumps on google that had PTFE and EPDM seals as options in them. I'll try to search them up again.

[blond_chap]

Yep not only acetone but furfural and pretty much all the lower point alcohols aren't very friendly to Viton. I did see a couple geared pumps on google that had PTFE and EPDM seals as options in them. I'll try to search them up again.

Thanks mate, do you know if there is any info on whether Ryton is leached into spirits? It seems fairly inert but I'm not clear on whether it will taint the spirit.

[wv_cooker]

Not sure about Ryton, I'll research a little. Here is a perfect pump but I haven't been able to find a price yet. I think anything similar to this would be good.

http://www.fluidotech.com/Pages/mag-dri ... mg200.aspx

[blond_chap]

Those do look good (though I couldn't find a full wetted materials list), one for sale on ebay for $600, bit steep I'm afraid.

[wv_cooker]

Ryton seemed fine though I am no kind of scientist. All the lower boiling points had A-excellent at cole parmer and the MSDS didn't show any ability to leach the only thing Ethanol had No Available info go figure. A pump is a tough one for this application, there must be one somewhere, I'll keep my eyes out.

[thecroweater]

Looked at some Barbet designs ,none have pumps. A still that requires a pump would most certainly be a different design than anything barbet designed . If it runs like its suppose to then the build is already a success . Opinions verses results , results takes precedence and becomes the fact