Condenser Controlled Columns

[Prairiepiss]

A condenser controlled VM still is still a VM and a condenser controlled LM still is still a LM still... Remember, it is what reflux method that is being controlled that dictates the type... If the reflux is based on liquid separation and return it is Liquid Management... If it is a separation of vapors then it is Vapor Management... Cooling Management is truly also a type of Vapor Management with the exception that the amount of coolant controls performance... So when controlling vapor separation by moving a condenser instead of a valve, while coolant flow remains unchanged, it is still Vapor Management...

Clear as mud, eh...

No actually a lot clearer now. Just needed a different perspective then what I had been getting. I was looking in left field. When should have been looking at home plate. Duh.

[S-Cackalacky]

I can't speak to this with any great authority - but, doesn't lava rock compare in efficiency to spp? And, just askin', but how tall would a 2" version of this still need to be to accomplish the same reflux as the 3" X 30" version?

S-C

No one has ever posted HETP numbers for Lava Rock. Mash Rookie was doing the studies on them. According to his posting he reached azeo in 4" x 30" tall column. Other studies continue now.

Thanks WV, I'll do what I should have done to begin with and do some more research on lava rock. I'm very interested in this design, but the spp packing would be prohibitive for me. I think I read one of DAD300's posts in a different thread that said a 90" column of copper packing would be required to equal the effect of 30" of spp. I believe it was in the same thread that the subject of lava rock came up. Would be cool if it turns out to be a viable alternative - the stuff is dirt cheap.

Just sayin',
S-C

[wv_cooker]

@S-Cack
I think we can take Mash Rookies word on his results. It's just that he never got to finish by posting the Hetp numbers. Yes it is in his let's talk column packing thread.

It's also the same thread that Dad kindly posted up his results on SPP along with Hetp Numbers.

Emptyglass and others have used Lava Rock with good results.

I am currently building a 3" dia. x 30" tall column and have the Lava for it, I will post results when I have them. I will also purchase SPP for the same column and compare the 2. We are probably close to a month from all being completed though.

[S-Cackalacky]

@S-Cack
I think we can take Mash Rookies word on his results. It's just that he never got to finish by posting the Hetp numbers. Yes it is in his let's talk column packing thread.

It's also the same thread that Dad kindly posted up his results on SPP along with Hetp Numbers.

Emptyglass and others have used Lava Rock with good results.

I am currently building a 3" dia. x 30" tall column and have the Lava for it, I will post results when I have them. I will also purchase SPP for the same column and compare the 2. We are probably close to a month from all being completed though.

I look forward to hearing about your results. But, no hurry for me. It will be some time til I'm ready to do this.

Thanks,
S-C

[DAD300]

Consider this a VM and the dia and height will always be determined by the type of packing...and yes I can do it with 30" of SPP.

I made my SPP, patterned after the current stuff sold to labs in the U.S. It is super expensive at lab supply places, less off the net supplier and I'm a cheap SOB...so I made it.

It was hard to make, especially the way I did cutting it by hand. I'll only make more if I decide I need more.

My goal was max takeoff speed of azeotrope. If I were willing to slow down the takeoff, just a little, I could do it with a 3" x 60" and SS Scrubbies as packing. Or, I have done same with a 2" x 36" SPP packing or 2" x 48" with Ss Scrubbies. When doing this with Scrubbies, the takeoff slows by almost 40%.

Condenser water...I now control the cooling water flow, by keeping it a constant 120 degress F coming off the reflux coil. Standard routing tap water into the leibig, out to reflux coil and out to waste. If I up that temp to 130 degrees F I have to watch my boiler closer...120 degrees F provides a better easier buffer.

Yes, the SS Flex pipe is 1/2" o.d. and I have a coil made out of 5/8" o.d. While the extra dia helps, I also have some made of 3/8" o.d. and they work fine. I tried the 3/8" to make an easier coil for 2" dia columns. At one point in the 2" columns, I was just running the 1/2" SS Flex pipe down and up with a twist in it, more of a twisted cold finger...and it worked for up to 3,500 watts easily. More than enough for a 2".

Frustration...yes and no...

If you're a traditionalist and want to work a potstill, more power to you. I can respect that. The guys who get great drink from potstills, are fermentation wizards!

If you're willing to go "modern" reflux column, I would assume you are looking for the quickest, easiest, cheapest build that has the potential of azeotrope. There is nothing simpler than this CC CM. When I see noobs building 2" x 60"+ BOKA's, knowing they will be collecting at drop speed, I get very frustrated!

Same with coils, I just don't get rolling and ruining copper, over and over and over again when there is a fool proof, 1/4 the cost, efficient replacement! I recently bought some 3/8' o.d. x 60" SS Flex pipe for $2.50usd each at an ACE Hardware surplus store. The 3/8" stuff can easily be rolled to fit into a 2" dia column. And it makes a fine product condenser...run a piece of it up and down a keg spear as a cold finger for Freidrichs/Dimroth style condenser.

[wv_cooker]

Great info Dad, Thanks.

[TDS]

DAd, is this 1/2 in ss flex for a 3 inch stack?
(The left 2 )
Also... if I understand correctly,
There is no copper in the vapor path w/ssp...

Do you miss it? Do you notice a difference?

Also, with the ss flex touching the side, do you have
trouble with the reflux distillate running down the side
Instead of the center?

I love the ss pre flared sanitary w/triclamps and teflon gaskets.
Endless Flexibility.

Cheers!

[Maritimer]

Hi DAD 0.3k,

Condenser water...I now control the cooling water flow, by keeping it a constant 120 degress F coming off the reflux coil. Standard routing tap water into the leibig, out to reflux coil and out to waste. If I up that temp to 130 degrees F I have to watch my boiler closer...120 degrees F provides a better easier buffer.

Can you go into more detail about the coolant temperature? When you say that at 130 degrees F you have to watch your boiler, does that mean that you have to reduce the power? What happens when you reach 130 degrees? If you operate at lower temperatures, what happens?

M

[FullySilenced]

Dad could you post a final condenser photo to give an example of how you use the ss g line in that area.... while using your CC/VM setup...

You know i am a ss tubing fan... it just works and its too simple but i am sure there are many ways to use it in a conedenser would love you see yours...

Have you used it in a long liebig situation? with cooling down the center rather than vapor? IF so how did you exit and enter the tubing (termination points) with it?

[mash rookie]

VM, CM, LM, WTF LOL. Funny debate. Call it what you want. I love the simple concept. I think rads def is close. We all use coolant to create reflux. Any condenser capable of 100% reflux will allow for maximum efficiency of the packing or plates below it.

I have always thought the simplest design would use only one condenser and incorporate a Boka style take off. Has anyone built a four inch Boka yet?

With a sliding adjustable reflux condenser?

MR

[DAD300]

Maritimer...if you monitor the temp of the outflow coolant temp., and keep it below 140ish, you should be condensing 100% of the vapor, in the column and in the product condenser. With my setup, if I keep it below 130 Deg F, I know I'm o.k. I worked in photo labs for years and I know MY HANDS can take about 140 deg F...so, I control the water volume to keep the coolant outflow temp around 120-130ish. Hope that makes sense!

My product comes out about 80deg F.

FS...

Reflux Coil for 3"

Scrubbie on top is last resort and stops wind from whistling in.

Reflux Coil Assembly

I just switched to a reducer on top, instead of a short straight pipe...purely aesthetics...vanity.

Reflux Assm Installed

[FullySilenced]

Thanks for the photo of the reflux condenser... mine is almost identical 42" of ss tubing... and its way overkill

Dad are you using the ss tubing in your final product condenser as well? I am using two one as a reflux condenser and one as the sliding condenser in the upturned arm.... modified manu slider...

Could you show your final product condenser as an example as i am working on a rig similar to what your using...

And possible show a few of your homemade spp... not sure i have the patience to make of bucket of that or not... even using my lathe to wind it in long lengths on say keystock, then cut it up...

[DAD300]

Keg Spears get thrown away all the time...here's a product condenser made from one.

Keg Spear (1" o.d.), added Recessless triclamp flange, with a twisted 1/2" x 60" SS Flex Pipe pushed through it!

Keg Spear Product Condenser

You need some kind of reducer on the top for a loop. Imagine the SS pipe makes a simple loop inside the reducer.

Column End Assm

3" to 1.5" with twisted SS cold finger

And here's a 1.5" version of same...you could do this one without the reducer on top. This has a 5/8" x 48" SS Flex Pipe twisted inside.

Not shown, I put some RTV on the end for the water connections. It makes them easier to seal.

I use the keg spear version, with a PVC over jacket, making a three wall leibig of sorts.

[DAD300]

I used a screw driver bit with a slot in the end as a mandrel for SPP. The pics are already on here somewhere. To get the mandrel right took hours, about two hours to wind the long coils and about ten hours to cut them in to bits with diagonals...ahhh...my hands.

Look at commercial Heli Pak, http://www.wilmad-labglass.com/Products/LG-6730-104/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

$190/LB / 3.7 pounds per quart, my column has about 14 pounds in it!

Then look at Odin's.

[FullySilenced]

DAD thank you for your posts.... some were as i expected some were new concepts...

We just keep pitching and catching ideas till we find the magic combination...

I would have never tried the ss tubing but for one of your posts over a year ago...

Thank YOU!

FS

[DAD300]

TDS...sorry I'm late...I do have a wad of copper Scrubbie. I place it near the top, so as to be able to clean it. And there is a SS Scrubbie at the bottom to stop the SPP from falling through to the boiler.

Yes, there is contact between the column wall and the SS Flex Pipe. I assume there is minimal reflux down the wall, and hope the shape of the coil bottom resists same.

The 3" reflux coil is 5/8" x 48". But, I have sense tried 1/2" x 60" and the smaller dia works fine and makes a few extra coils. And the 1/2" can make two runs in a keg spear. LOL...everything new will be from 1/2" x 60", as I bought two boxes from a surplus sale house.

I've even thought about wrapping one around the outside of a keg spear as a jacket, and insulating over it..

[Maritimer]

Hi DADEOO,

I'm still trying to understand how the moving coil changes the reflux ratio. I need to know if the coolant temperature changes the output product rate, which would mean that the RR has changed. In my VM, I run the coolant through a recirculating radiator/fan setup. The power is during hearts is just a little more than the radiator can handle, so the temperature gradually rises, but never gets above tepid. If you run at lower coolant temperatures, is the operation of the still different? Or do you need to run at 120 degrees for optimal performance?

M

[Bushman]

I probably should have moved the following thread to this one but thought it should be at least linked. Manu discusses the problems he has had with the CC design.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=41650

[oakback]

I can do a 3" triclamp SS for less than $180usd and assembly in less than an hour!

Where can you get all these pieces for that cheap? I was already looking into buying 304ss exhaust pipe and having a guy weld on triclamp ferrules, because it seemed to be the cheapest route. But that still got me to about $150, before the welding fees.

[six]

would 1500 watts be enough power to operate this?

[mash rookie]

would 1500 watts be enough power to operate this?

No. 1500 watts will run a two inch column if the boiler is well insulated and you have a lot of patience.
This design is a three inch column. With typical packing of low performance or high performance SPP you need 16 -20 in / sec vapor speed to establish a reflux ratio sufficient enough to raise ABV significantly. Three inch will require 2500 watts minimium.

Nice work Dad. I like your thinking.
Scott

[DAD300]

I agree with MR...I start heatup with about 4,500 watts and back down to about 3,000. My boiler is not insulated well, only on top. I use gas and any attempts at insulation on the sides have not gone well.

I do put a shield around the bottom to stop the wind from getting to the flame.

[TDS]

I can do a 3" triclamp SS for less than $180usd and assembly in less than an hour!

Where can you get all these pieces for that cheap? I was already looking into buying 304ss exhaust pipe and having a guy weld on triclamp ferrules, because it seemed to be the cheapest route. But that still got me to about $150, before the welding fees.

I like Texas processing technology, ss comes preflared for triclamp.
Check out my build thread to see it.

Expensive to buy preflared ss sanitary, but probably cheaper than
buying ss sanitary and paying to have it tig welded.

Do a DAD300 and get some ss gas flex, and you're Done.

Cheers!

[ADRK]

Cudo's Dad on a fine looking tower. I find the simplicity of the Mau's concept intriguing, and this to be the most elegant build I've seen based on it.
I don't see a temp port in any of the photos of your still that I've seen in this thread or others. Is there one?
Also, you mention checking temp of the coolant...I'm assuming you are sampling on the outflow of the reflux coil?

[DAD300]

ADRK,

I take an external temp (with a meat thermometer) on the boiler to see when I am getting to heatup of about 145 deg F and I slow heatup by lowering the power to run power. Boiler starts around 70 deg F and gets to 145 in 30 minutes with 4,500 watts. 145 to 170ist takes 20 minutes at 3,000 watts, takes 10-15 minutes for vapor to fill column and could have first signs of product at one hour after power on.

After the run starts I sample the coolant water temp, at the end of hose, where I put the heated water into storage (hot tub). This is the only temp that means anything, to me. I keep the reflux coil below 140 deg F, thus not letting any vapor escape out the top.

I don't think temps are very important within the column. If your boiler is giving off vapor, and you're getting the desired ethanol output (quantity and quality), life is good.

I know it could start a war around here, but I don't see it as any different than a pot still! Make vapor, science makes vapor come off in the right order, control vapor by watching output...collect in small vessels and cut to desired product.

After you've run your still successfully two or three times, you know what is happening!

[ADRK]

Thanks for the feedback. As a previous pot stiller (25 years ago), your basic philosophy is one that I am quite comfortable with.

[TDS]

Not sure about the pot still part,
but I've run my new rig Xavier twice now,
no thermometer (sac run and 1 real run)...

Runs fine. I had planned to add ports for thermometers,
now I feel like I might just leave them out. (Boka not CM)

[DAD300]

I put another of these Condenser Controlled VM's together (for a friend), and we ran it this weekend for first time.

Gas under an unmodified keg, 2" x 3" adapter, 3" x 36" column with 15 SS Scrubbies in it (packed very tight), 3" x 1.5" x 3" "T" (1.5" as takeoff), 1/2" x 60" SS Flex Pipe for reflux coils, 1/2" x 60" SS Flex Pipe stuffed into a Keg Spear for a product condenser...

14 gallon charge, 14% sugar wash, to heatup in 55 minutes (being careful). The coil easily made 100% reflux, raised 1" it dripped, another 1/2" and we had a pencil lead width stream.

It made azeotrope averaging a quart every 22 minutes...I left him alone as tails started...I haven't heard yet how or when the ABV dropped off.

Point is...off the shelf parts, perfect SS coils first try, and no surprises running it.

Well one surprise...the azeotrope! I was expecting something in high 80's...

[aj2456]

hi just found this thread (again),

i now properly understand this concept and gotta say im v impressed- awkwardly im uk based (all outer yellow coated crap over-here) but ive found this on us amazon- and yes they import - is this the tube for the job?- doubt i will need more than the 3.kw u reckoned it was good to

atm undecided on 2" or 3" version of the threads design- but either means i can use my existing pot still head and no copper winding

http://www.amazon.com/LDR-509-1060SS-St ... 8%22+OD+60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

also sorry if this is a dumb question/me being thick- but how do u keep the coil at the level after u move it?- is it just friction from the ss scrubby top against the column???

[DAD300]

aj2456, make just one coil large enough for a press or interference fit and it will hold the coil in place. The flex pipe is very springy and it holds perfectly.