Packed column or high ABV for flavor

[defcon4]

My pot still will output distillate at 90% ABV if it is run slowly and the temperature is kept between 174-178 degF. Since the ABV is high, does that mean that the distillate will be flavorless as well? Or is flavor only removed when you reflux the distillate through a packed column?

I ask because I am considering building a new still head to go on my boiler and I'm thinking about making an even taller "pot-still" head that would have a packed column and rely on natural reflux.

[HookLine]

I don't understand the question.

[Husker]

I would suggest reading the parent site. Your question simply makes little sense.

If you are trying for a neutral, then you are wanting as high an ABV as you can get, and that is done with multiple distillations possible using a column still.

Trying to get a "true" neutral in a pot still is something which can not be done efficiently (usually).

H.


Edit:

After reading your post (and reading between the lines), it sound like you do not have a pot still, but have an unpacked column still. When you run that slow, you are getting reflux (hence the 90% ABV). What packing will do, is to increase the "quality" of the reflux, do to lower the height of a "theoretical plate". Thus, if you have a 30" column, and are refluxing like a 4 plate still (don't quote this, I am simply making it up), by simply packing it with copper, you will increase this to say 9 "theoretical" plates, and thus increase the "optimal" max ABV the still will produce.

A true pot still will usually turn 12% into 36-45%, then turn that into 65-70% on the next distill, and turn that into 80-85% on the next distill, etc. With a column still, you are getting these "multiple" distillations in a single run, due to the refluxing characteristics of the still, redistilling the vapors again and again.

[Bujapat]

Do you have a reflux still or a fractionnating still (ofset head or bokakob style) ?

[defcon4]

Sorry if the question is confusing, I guess its hard to explain what I'm asking.

I have a pot still that's pretty tall and uses a jacketed condenser.
I have read to parent site so much I could practically quote it off the top of my head.

When I run my potstill, I control the heat source to the boiler and keep the temperature of the steam in the lyne arm in between 174-180 degrees Fahrenheit. The distillate that I collect is 90% ABV.

My question is, since that distillate is at 90% ABV, it will pretty much be flavorless right?

OR:

Is it necessary to have a packed column (more distillations) in order to actually remove any flavor


So just as an example: If there was a potstill with NO packing that produced 90% alcohol and there was a reflux still WITH packing that also produced 90% alcohol. Would both of the 90% alcohol distillates from the different stills be equally flavorless? Or would the distillate from the packed column reflux still be the most neutral?

[Tater]

Sorry if the question is confusing, I guess its hard to explain what I'm asking.

I have a pot still that's pretty tall and uses a jacketed condenser.
I have read to parent site so much I could practically quote it off the top of my head.

When I run my potstill, I control the heat source to the boiler and keep the temperature of the steam in the lyne arm in between 174-180 degrees Fahrenheit. The distillate that I collect is 90% ABV.

My question is, since that distillate is at 90% ABV, it will pretty much be flavorless right?

OR:

Is it necessary to have a packed column (more distillations) in order to actually remove any flavor


So just as an example: If there was a potstill with NO packing that produced 90% alcohol and there was a reflux still WITH packing that also produced 90% alcohol. Would both of the 90% alcohol distillates from the different stills be equally flavorless? Or would the distillate from the packed column reflux still be the most neutral?

Mostly what determines the flavor is ratio between distillate and whatever it was fermented with grain or fruit. More etho less water =less taste however ya get there.Dont know what proof your washes start at but Id like to see a pic of the pot still that would run 180 proof likker first run with a regluar proof wash.To answer your question Id say the reflux still make the cleanest by a bit because of the way they operate.

[HookLine]

Now I understand the question.

I have not done this experiment so I don't know for sure. But my guess is that if you are getting the same abv, then you must be getting the same amount of reflux (assuming your washes are the same abv). And hence the flavour profile would be much the same. The difference would be in the take-off rate, and the height of column needed. A packed column would give you a faster take-off rate, and use less column height, for the same product.

[new_moonshiner]

To get the 90 abv with the pot still you would need to distill more than once .. the Reflux is doing the same thing in a single run... many redistilations over and over in the packing .. so if both stills are using the same wash.. in youre example then 90 abv would be the same and taste the same . the higher the abv closer to netural the less flavor the product will contain .

[defcon4]

Cool. Well I'll search the forum and find an image hosting site, I'll take some pictures of my still when I run some UJSM this weekend and post them in this thread. Ever since I've built this still I was always surprised at the high ABV, and disappointed at the slow collection rate as hookline mentioned. I'm gonna try insulating the lyne arm to get more flavor now that I know I need to lower the ABV of the distillate.

If I run a 13-15% ABV wash through, it takes about 5-6hrs running at 174-180 degrees Fahrenheit but I'll collect 87-90% ABV distillate

If I run a 7-8% ABV wash (my scotch and other grain whiskey washes) it collects so slowly that I just do a low wines run with it and run all the low wines through later.

[duds2u]

Just a thought on your high ABV%.
Are you correcting the ABV% for temperature?

[Tater]

Cool cause I'm betting you've built a hybrid leaning more toward a reflux.Mines a hybrid as well with the 18 in of packed scrubbers in a column 1 1/2 in reduced to 3/4in tubing with inclined lye arm going to a coil in a barrel.However way mines works I only improved my abv 5 to 10 proof over not using column when fine tuning with heat.

[dog1976]

If I run a 13-15% ABV wash through, it takes about 5-6hrs running at 174-180 degrees Fahrenheit but I'll collect 87-90% ABV distillate

How many litters of wash in your pot still?
If you are only distilling a 5 or 6 litter wash at 13-15% with temps 174-180 and taking 5 to 6 hours, you may not be truely boiling your wash but more like evaporating the alcohol out.

[blanikdog]

My pot still is the old faithful 'coil in a bucket' job and when I run low wines diluted to 40abv through it I get 80abv at 82c dropping to 40abv at around 90c. It sits on 82c for about seven hours and when I taste the propanols I boost the heat and collect the tails as feints down to about 30abv. This takes about another hour. I use the temp as a guide only, relying on taste for the cuts.

I know it's irrelevant to the poll but it seems to be relevant to def's post, I think.

I keep low wines until I have four gallons or so before the second distillation.

It has tons of flavour particularly after a bit of airing time.

blanik

[defcon4]

Just a thought on your high ABV%.
Are you correcting the ABV% for temperature?

I check it when its at about room temp (70 degF) and my hydrometer is calibrated at 62 degF and it says to add like 1% to the ABV. But you are correct, I should be more accurate with this, guess I've gotten slipshod in my habits over time.

To answer dog1976's question,
I'm embarrassed to say this but, my boiler is a 6 quart (1.5 gallon, bout 4-5 liters) pressure cooker. So I only run 1 gallon (3.78 liter) batches at a time. I know, I know, that's a really small amount but if made 5 gallon batches, I'd have so much liquor that I wouldn't be able to consume it all. I like to tinker and play around with aging, different recipes, etc. so it's more economical to make smaller batches in my case.

I know the wash does in fact boil, I hear it boiling when the stills running. The long running time of my still doesn't bother me too much any more now that I have a temperature controller that controls my heating element.

I'll take a bunch of pictures of my setup this weekend (probably on saturday, maybe friday) and post em that night.


Now I'm wondering if I should try just setting the still at a higher temp, (maybe 185-191 degF, I don't want to get into the tails range) and run it faster to get a lower ABV with more flavor, or any flavor at all. Is it ok to make cuts based solely on the ABV of the distillate collected without even caring/looking at the temperature?

[dog1976]

To answer dog1976's question,
I'm embarrassed to say this but, my boiler is a 6 quart (1.5 gallon, bout 4-5 liters) pressure cooker. So I only run 1 gallon (3.78 liter) batches at a time. I know, I know, that's a really small amount but if made 5 gallon batches, I'd have so much liquor that I wouldn't be able to consume it all. I like to tinker and play around with aging, different recipes, etc. so it's more economical to make smaller batches in my case.

I know the wash does in fact boil, I hear it boiling when the stills running. The long running time of my still doesn't bother me too much any more now that I have a temperature controller that controls my heating element.

If you up the heat, your collection rate will pick up and your ABV% will drop like a rock.
With the temps and collect rate you are running I believe you have a very very lite boil and the heat loss of your pressure cooker lid is greater than your boiling rate. The vapors are condensing on the pressure cooker lid. You are condensing more like fumes with your condenser, giving you a very high ABV% and a very very slow collection rate. A faster collection rate will give you more flavor and a lot lower ABV%.
If you are happy with what you are collecting now don't change a thing.

[defcon4]

I like the idea of being able to make some neutralish vodka,
but I've been having consistent problems with my whiskeys being "over oaked" during aging. Now I think the problem isn't that they're over oaked, but that there isn't enough flavor in the first place.

I am considering the construction of 2 new still heads for my still though. One designed to have even more natural reflux along with packing, and a smaller head designed to collect more flavorful (less ABV) distillate.

[rangaz]

Higher %ABV is sort of implied by good packing and reflux. In saying that there can be a vast difference between two vodkas at their azeotropic limits. Point is, a good still is great, but if you dont run it carefully and slowly, it wont taste as good as it can.

[DestructoMutt]

The answer to your question is that the flavor is stripped out as the alcohol concentration rises.

The water that is carried over when the ABV is lower has the flavor, when the water is stripped out, so is the flavor.

A carefully and slowly run pot still can produce flavorless (or near flavorless) product. It's the fact that it has to be run slooooooowly that disqualifies it as a flavorless product producer for most people.