A Cheap Plated Column Section

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A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

The Scrap Yard™ Plated Column Section

I have been using a 2" Boka for a while and do not like the time it takes to do a 50 litre wash. I have been wondering if I could justify buying or making a bubbler, and decided I would make up a 3" tube fitted with a couple of plates to put under the Boka head and see what sort of result I could get.

I picked up a few old copper air conditioning oil separator housings to make up a bubbler column to experiment. Note: I am not into stills for the copper pawn eye candy, but rather for what comes out of them. Don't expect to drool over my solder joints and brazing.

I started with a 3" diameter copper housing into which I fitted 3 very crude and quickly made bubble plates to get a feel for what I was going to be able to achieve. I brazed 2" triclamp fittings to each end of the housing so I could add the section into the column of my existing Boka column which is assembled in sections.

In building this 3" plated section I have specifically tried to keep the section as short as possible. I already have a couple of hybrid two inch flange to two and a half inch tube reflux sections that I have been using with increased boiler power to try and increase takeoff rate on the cheap while maintaining high ABV and I want to use these with this plated section to see what takeoff rate I can achieve while maintaining a reasonably high ABV.

The 3" 3 plate section was 385mm long from flange to flange, and the three bubble plates were (very roughly) soldered into the tube...

Image

Putting this 3 plate section on a 2000w boiler containing around 10% wash and putting a 2" Boka head on top resulted in over 85% ABV at a take off rate of around 1.25 litres per second. Adding another section containing 400mm of packing took the ABV to over 90%. Hummmmmmm.......

I decided to rebuild the section with 4 perforated plates and see what the performance was like. The initial 4 plate assembly is shown in the following diagram...

Image

[EDIT: In the mucking about I have taken the bottom plate out to 125 holes of 2mm diameter]

Instead of trying to solder the plates inside the tube, this time I decided to cut through the tube at the location of each plate and sandwich the plates between tube sections.

I had trouble with the 4 perf plate assembly gurgling at 2000 watt as if fluid was building up on one or more plates. I assumed this was because the opening of the downcomer is not feeding the turbulent aerated fluid into the downcomer tube at the required rate but I now think the problem might be that I did not allow enough distance above the top plate before entering the 2" triclamp flange, and the gurgling was fluid being blown into the flange.

The 4 perf plates worked OK at around 1700 watt of boiler power. By it's self it gave over 88% ABV, and with a reflux section containing 400mm of copper packing it gave 92-93% ABV. When I unassembled this 4 perf plate section I found a few problems with plate components moving from the solder melting when applying heat to solder the tube sections together.

Image

Upon reassembling this 3" plate section, I decided to change the top two plates over to bubble plates...

Image

My metal recycler saved a 4" diameter copper oil separator housing for me, and so I decided to incorporate a 4" plated section on top of the 3" plated section. Because this 4" section is only short, and I decided I wanted to fit three plates into it, I have had to move the plates closer together. Where as in the 3" section the plates were 90mm apart, in the 4" section they are only 70mm apart. Here is a drawing of the 4" plates...

Image

Upon joining the 4" section to the top of the 3" section this is what I have ended up with...

Image

Image

So far I have only run foreshots mixed with a small amount of waste alcohol through the various iterations of this activity, and the whole exercise has been done with absolute minimal expenditure ($40 plus time so far). I am about to give the insides of the tubes an acid bath and flush out, and I expect to be putting a 50 litre 10% wash through in a few days time. From the testing I have done so far with an 800mm reflux section on top, as in the last photo, it seems like I will easily get +95% ABV at over 1.25 litres/hour with less than a 10% wash using 2000 watts of boiler power.

I do not know what the take off limits are as I have not tried pushing past 1.25 litres/hour yet, and I am still to put a decent sized wash through it so I can have a steady run. When I started playing with the 3" plate section, my goal was to achieve 92% ABV at 1.25 litres/hour with the plate section by itself, and it appears I have easily achieved my goal. I am also being a little conservative with the figures I am quoting as I need to have more runs done to better understand what I am really achieving.

The main product I make is neutral for flavouring with essences. I recognise that mixing 3" and 4" plates will not give the efficiency and throughput achievable with a 4" system, but am trying to get the best ABS and throughput I can using only scrap materials that are available to me. If anyone can see where I could have made this plated section more efficient I would love to hear from you and I will modify the column accordingly.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by Prairiepiss »

I would have put the 4" below the 3".
I would probably used less plates. Really for adding to a packed column. That many isn't really needed.
Having a way to see the liquid levels on the plates. Is really handy. Helps know when its flooding. When tails are coming on. And a few other things.

But I am curious as to how it works out for you.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

Prairiepiss wrote:I would have put the 4" below the 3".
G'Day PP,
My understanding is that upper plates see more vapour and liquid than lower plates because of reflux, and from reading I have done I have had the impression that it is the lowest plate that will dry up first toward the end of a run. My understanding resulted in me drilling less holes on the bottom plate, and is also the reason why I put the 4" section on top of the 3" section.
I would probably used less plates. Really for adding to a packed column. That many isn't really needed.
My thinking was that all seven plates would not necessarily be efficiently operating *(as I didn't know what I was doing :lol: ), and this exercise has been a "suck it and see" activity. I was also wondering what ABV I would achieve with 7 plates, and whether I could get high ABV with a far shorter packed section after the plates. I still need to do more trialing to see how it works.
Having a way to see the liquid levels on the plates. Is really handy. Helps know when its flooding. When tails are coming on. And a few other things.
Yeah. I would like a few sight glass windows into the inner workings, but the budget doesn't stretch to purchasing the bits and pieces.
But I am curious as to how it works out for you.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by olddog »

Every time I see a new column build I am amazed at how many holes are on the plates. More holes mean more power required to support the liquid bath on the plate, you don't need a colander. The Original Flute had 36 holes of 3/32 diameter which will run on 2400w, I am currently running one of my original builds with this configuration. I don't post here much these days, but I felt the need to bring this back to the realm of "home distillation" which can be run on the voltage and ampage that most have at home to power your boiler and run your still.

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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

olddog wrote:Every time I see a new column build I am amazed at how many holes are on the plates. More holes mean more power required to support the liquid bath on the plate, you don't need a colander. The Original Flute had 36 holes of 3/32 diameter which will run on 2400w, I am currently running one of my original builds with this configuration. I don't post here much these days, but I felt the need to bring this back to the realm of "home distillation" which can be run on the voltage and ampage that most have at home to power your boiler and run your still.

OD
Hi Olddog, thanks for your input, I appreciate it. This issue of hole count and hole size is something I have been in the dark about. I started out with three plates of 3" diameter using two fairly roughly made bubble caps on each plate. I then went to 4 perforated plates and did not notice the improvement in ABV that I was expecting. I then changed the top two plates to a 2 bubble cap per plate arrangement, and I believe I did notice an improvement in ABV. I have to say though that I have to do a few more runs before I really get a handle on what is going on.

I am very willing to try different hole sizes and counts, and have been considering unassembling the 3" section to make a few changes to the plates. I have taken on board what you are saying.

EDIT: I have been wondering if the perforated plates may be losing liquid through the holes but have no way of seeing if this is happening. Also, I have set up the downcomer to 20mm height above the plate for fluid depth. Would you change that"
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by srs787 »

Thank you APR. You have given me more ideas for scrap yard lurking. Hope it works for you. Keep posting updates. Good job on the pics and drawings. And to you Olddog any info from you is a blessing. Thank both you.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

srs787 wrote:Thank you APR. You have given me more ideas for scrap yard lurking.
Hi srs787, one thing that is not obvious initially is that some of these oil separators work under pressure, and the wall thickness can be 2mm and greater. Even for making a good solid bubbler plate they are the ducks guts. I am in a country town, and the local metal recycler doesn't see much of this sort of stuff, but when he does I have asked him to put it aside for me which he does.

Many of these oil separators have a metal/non copper gause and ferrous support ring inside them, and therefore they do not bring the top copper price when you purchase them from the recycler. (a magnet tells the difference 8) )
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by googe »

Good stuff mate alot of thinking there, and work!!!. I was thinking like PP with the 4" above the 3", results tell the thrueth, theroy is theory. Only thing I'd add is, 1/2" downcomers are prone to flooding, the gurgling you hear is flooding. my first plated column had no sight glasses, and couldn't tell what was happening, since I've out one in I can see what's happening, gurgling is flooding, it should sound active, like listening to a shallow bath is active, fast. A deep bath, flooding will be not fast, active, will be gurgly. Did you test your plates are sealed properly?, any leaks will cause by passing vapors. You have alot going on with different plates, sizes, packed section. I'd run each plated section separately, log results. eg: try the 4" section. Try the 3" section. Try the 3" on top of the 4" section. Try the 4" section on top of the 3" section. Then try the packed section on all configurations. You would have to try different plates with each other too. I've read in the past a bubble cap each end works.well. I love you thinking. Keep at it. Good luck mate.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by BigSwede »

There's a lot to digest here, and I need to read it a couple times, but I wanted to add "kudos" for trying this. I am fascinated with systems that combine elements of packing and plates so as to minimize height and make a compact system.

I agree with the notion that sight glasses in this case would help hugely, but they are complex and expensive.

Stupid idea time - I was shopping at a local hardware store, and they had a selection of those super wide angle door peep-viewer things. Like this:

Image

I was playing with them, and not only do you get a good focus at just a few inches, it'll let you see almost the whole plate, and with just one small hole.

The ones I saw were stainless steel and glass - compatible. I'm considering trying one just for a fun experiment.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by Hound Dog »

You know, a trap adapter from a hardware store and a borosilicate lens from McMaster Carr is not all that expensive and definitely not complex. File the back of the trap adapter to fit the shape of the column, solder it on, run a hole saw through it, wrap the edge of the glass with PTFE tape and screw it in with the trap adapter nut. Done.

Big Swede, I am sure you would have it on a lathe and CNC machine milling it down to the nearest .00001 inch, :eugeek: but a hand file and battery drill will get the job done too. :P

All this without the burn mark on your forehead from trying to peak in your column through a door peephole. :shock:
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by BigSwede »

Hound Dog wrote:
All this without the burn mark on your forehead from trying to peak in your column through a door peephole. :shock:
Ha ha! Didn't even think about the heat! :ewink: Yeah, not good. Oh well, it was just a fun thought. I think it would actually work if there's a way to get light in there, and avoid burning your eyeball checking on things. The optical quality was surprisingly good.

I'm still trying to digest APR's system. Nice work on the CAD drawings as well, always helpful. I want to do something similar... replace 1.5 meters of 2" pipe with something wider and shorter. Bubble ball, that sort of thing.

Zoro tools has relatively inexpensive copper float balls and ellipse shapes in a number of diameters, but I suspect the copper is very thin.

http://www.zoro.com/g/Heavy-Duty%20Floa ... 66073/None
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

googe wrote:Good stuff mate alot of thinking there, and work!!!. I was thinking like PP with the 4" above the 3", results tell the thrueth, theroy is theory. Only thing I'd add is, 1/2" downcomers are prone to flooding, the gurgling you hear is flooding. my first plated column had no sight glasses, and couldn't tell what was happening, since I've out one in I can see what's happening, gurgling is flooding, it should sound active, like listening to a shallow bath is active, fast. A deep bath, flooding will be not fast, active, will be gurgly.
Hi Googe, thanks for the reply. From the feedback I have received and from further reading, there are a few issues I will change in the design. I may leave this column section as it is and build another with a few changes. Things I will change...

1. Larger downcomer tubes.
2. Increased distance between the plates. (I am thinking a minimum of 100mm)
3. I will go to all 4" plates, and will only have 3 or 4 plates, and still use the 800mm packed section above this plate section for when doing neutrals.
4. I have to make up my mind regarding what plate design I use... perforated plates or bubble cap. The reading I have done suggests to me that perf plates are possibly more efficient, but I do like the idea of bubble caps with a controlled depth of fluid on the plate.
Did you test your plates are sealed properly?, any leaks will cause by passing vapors.
The plates are sandwiched between the outer tube sections and soldered in. I don't think there can be any passing vapours.
You have alot going on with different plates, sizes, packed section. I'd run each plated section separately, log results. eg: try the 4" section. Try the 3" section. Try the 3" on top of the 4" section. Try the 4" section on top of the 3" section. Then try the packed section on all configurations. You would have to try different plates with each other too. I've read in the past a bubble cap each end works.well. I love you thinking. Keep at it. Good luck mate.
I have run a 10kg sugar 50 litre tomato paste wash through using only the plate section, no packed section, and had the 220 volt 3000 watt element being fed 200 volt, and the alcohol was pouring out of the boka head. I believe the tap and tube on the boka head was limiting the discharge rate and sending product to reflux. I was achieving around 3 litres/hour and still achieving 92% ABV (not corrected for temp... coming out at 55 -60 degree C) in the first half of the run. :D

The plated column section by it's self seems to be able to run at reasonably high power.

I watered down the product from the 50 litre TPW and ran it through again using the plated column with an 800mm packed section above it and again with a Boka head on top. Once into hearts I was able to run at 2 litres/hour at a temp corrected 94% ABV using what I calculate to be around 2200 watt of boiler power. I am as happy as could be with how it performed. Toward the end of the run I increased the power when into tails, but had to reduce the power as I again had the gurgling at the higher power level.

From reading I have done, it appears that having the plates too close together can result in fluid being forced into the plate above, and the ABV% will not be as good as it should be for the number of plates. I have the impression that I am seeing this effect as I am not seeing the ABV% I expected from having 7 plates in the plated section.

I am going to wait until I can get more 4" copper, and I will build another short column with more distance between the plates, plus larger diameter downcomers. I have a gut feeling that 4 plates properly spaced can probably do as well as what I am currently doing with the mix of 3 inch and 4 inch plates too close together.

I still need to do a few more washes through this plated section, but so far it is giving me the performance I was chasing. I am very happy with it.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

BigSwede wrote:I want to do something similar... replace 1.5 meters of 2" pipe with something wider and shorter. Bubble ball, that sort of thing.
G'Day BigSwede, Before starting on the plated column section I had been using a couple of packed sections. One section is 800mm long, and another is 450mm long. I have a 2000 watt 30 litre boiler that is 650mm high, and my Boka head is 340mm long for a total of 2240mm. I have 150mm clearance to the ceiling.

I have a 50 litre keg boiler that is 530mm high, and my plated column section is 630mm long. With the 800mm packed section and 340mm boka head I have a total length of 2300mm. I have 90mm clearance to the ceiling.

This plated column section on the keg with the 800mm packed section is performing far better than the 800mm and 450mm packed sections were doing. I am confident to say the product take off rate at reasonably high purity is now 50 - 75% better than it was previously.

Prior to building the plated section, I had considered building a bent Boka type head to give me more height for a longer packed section..

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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by BigSwede »

Interesting, never seen or even thought of a slanted reflux condenser in that style. That's a good way to do it, or any of the horizontal reflux condenser designs would do similar.

Daydreaming just now of a system that would collect all condensate down low, just like a pot still, yet at that collection point, you the operator can divert a very specific percentage back UP to the top of the reflux column, where it simply drains back down into the packing. Of course this is wildly complex, would require a pump or pressure, neither good at all w hot ethanol, and there'd be potentially big smearing and/or thermodynamic issues, excess cooling that would make equilibrium difficult.

Anyway, we had a thread a while back where the emphasis was on performance vs size or height, and the junior engineer in me loves compact, yet high performing systems of ANY kind.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by googe »

Sounds like you know what you need to do mate :thumbup: . You just need everything to flow well, bigger downcomers like you say. Entrainment is hat happens when your plates are to close, 100mm seems to be the common distance people do, square "section", mine are 115mm, just wanted a little more. 3~4 plates with a packed section will do most things. Mine is 3 single bubble caps with 30mm lava packed section. Get hearts at 90% at around 1.8~2.2 lph with the plates and up to 94% with the packed sectioned I run at about 1.8 lph.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

Well, my metal recycler came good faster than I expected, and he has given me a few decisions to make. This morning he had a few bits of copper put to one side for me.

800mm of 4" x 1.6mm wall copper tube
500mm of 3" x 1.6mm wall copper tube
approx 600mm of 8" x 2mm wall copper tube of which I took 200 mm. I will use this to make plates.
I also picked up a bit of 19mm and 28mm to make more bubble caps.

Image

This copper is enough to make a good start on a 4" flute, however, I am thinking I will use it to put a 500mm x 3" packed section on top of a 4" plate section, and top it with a 2&1/2 inch dia Boka head. I have to give this some thought.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by DAD300 »

Here's a drawing from Manu...his design of Slanted Condenser Controlled LM.

Remember the reflux coil can be movable...
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and with this config you don't need a valve for takeoff.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

DAD300 wrote:Here's a drawing from Manu...his design of Slanted Condenser Controlled LM.

Remember the reflux coil can be movable...[...] ..and with this config you don't need a valve for takeoff.
Hi DAD300, I have looked at Manu's sliding condenser coil design in the past. He has a youtube video showing this design in use...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vJn0lp-IP0

I am a fan of using a cold finger through the centre of the coil, and already have 3 or 4 off 2" coils of this design. They do not lend themselves to Manu's concept because they are soldered into the column tube, and all water leaves the coil via the bottom discharge...

Image

Image

I have put well over 3000 watt of vapour through this coil design in 2" and it handles it with ease. I have then put one wrap of water cooling tube around the outside of the condenser column to further increase the condenser cooling capacity. This has been done when I have been pushing to see how much wattage I could put through a 2" Boka head (no packed column) for when doing stripping runs. I did contemplate going to gas when stripping for the power it gives you, but decided against it because of potential safety issues.

I found the 2 elongated plates in the Boka design can limit the vapour energy you can push through to the condenser because of the reduced cross sectional area increasing the vapour speed and the vapour holding up liquid above the plates. I would like to get around this issue, and either removing both plates, or removing one plate and reducing the size of the other, would be a solution.

Regarding where I wanted to be when I started playing with the 3" plate section, I have got there, and I should be happy with how this plated section is performing. I am going to do a few more washes through my current 3" - 4" plate section with a packed section above it to get a better understanding of how it performs. It is much better for purity at a reasonably fast discharge rate than what I had before and I am extremely pleased with the result, but, I do believe it could be noticeably better than it is.

EDIT: If you look at the first image in this post, the angle on the bottom of the cold finger will assist with carrying fluid to the tube wall. One smaller plate below the finger entry to the tube wall should pick up a significant amount of the condensed product running down the wall, but any liquid not picked up by this one plate would not necessarily be dropping down the centre of the column. Placing a centering device at the top of the packed section would fix this provided the centering device did not increase vapour speed to the extent that reflux liquid was held up above the centering device. The concept doesn't do much for when the Boka head is used for stripping runs, though, as far as capturing ALL condensed liquid.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by APR »

APR wrote:Well, my metal recycler came good faster than I expected, and he has given me a few decisions to make. This morning he had a few bits of copper put to one side for me.

800mm of 4" x 1.6mm wall copper tube
500mm of 3" x 1.6mm wall copper tube
approx 600mm of 8" x 2mm wall copper tube of which I took 200 mm. I will use this to make plates.
I also picked up a bit of 19mm and 28mm to make more bubble caps.

Image

This copper is enough to make a good start on a 4" flute, however, I am thinking I will use it to put a 500mm x 3" packed section on top of a 4" plate section, and top it with a 2&1/2 inch dia Boka head. I have to give this some thought.
Well, my metal recycler came up with a bit of 5 inch copper for me, so I decided to build a plated column. I am still finishing off the hoses for the cooling, and I came to the conclusion that my reflux condenser was too small, so I made another to go underneath the original to give me adequate reflux capability. I have yet to mount the water flow controls and a flow meter on the plate I have attached to the product condenser. Hopefully I will have this still ready for it's first run in a couple of days time.

Image
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by WIski »

APR Wrote
I am not into stills for the copper pawn eye candy, but rather for what comes out of them. Don't expect to drool over my solder joints and brazing.
I see you have changed your mind......... :shock: NICE!! :eugeek:
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by Condensifier »

This has to be one of the best looking stills ever. :thumbup: Thanks for sharing.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by BoomTown »

Wow!! That's one pretty piece of work. Wonder how much it makes, how fast, what the ABV out is, and how much heat do you need to make it strut its stuff?
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by jedneck »

That beauty makes mine look like a pile of dog shit, but its a tool not artwork. Nice work.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by BigSwede »

WOW! Just... wow. Absolutely beautiful. I hope my finished still can approach that for just overall eye pop and symmetry. LOVE it when guys take care and make things like the radii on the smaller pipes the same, plumbing is parallel, etc.

You sir are a metal artist of the highest caliber.
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by hellbilly007 »

Very nice. Shiny too
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by Spriit Tisler »

How many plates should be necessary for azeotropic distillations? 20 or more? What would be the spacing? In 3" still that is 50" long one should have a plate for every 2"?
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Re: A Cheap Plated Column Section

Post by bluefish_dist »

Wow, quite a zombie thread. Most of the guys on adi are running 16-20 plates for vodka. You will need more than 2" between plates. Probably a minimum of 4". I recently made plates with a #50 hole and each hole handles about 30 watts.
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