New Bubble Cap Design...

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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FullySilenced
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New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by FullySilenced »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty6eY9VUIgI new bubble cap has a cap and a downcomer (integral) built into one...

Good thought provoking idea....

FS

edit: btw its patent pending i read.... don't mean you couldn't make some for your own use
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by rad14701 »

Those plates have been posted here previously so they're nothing overly new... Very compact...
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by harley03 »

Interesting solution for E85/petrol alcohol with the return tubes inside the bubbel capsen, unfortunately teaches separation / taste suffer when they can not control Relux fluid way across ENTIRE plate ... but probably it will be an effective flat surface but at the expense of taste ...

But for E85 this is a rely good solution....

The whole distillation idea is that reflux liquid should have as Long way that it is only possible before it reaches the next plate return pipe and with this, you get a much better separation ...

Which is never likely to be the case with this construction with 1pc return tube in each bubbelcaps ...

https://www.stilldragon.org/discussion/ ... ct-line-up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty6eY9VUIgI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cheers från Falköping
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by FullySilenced »

RAD I have never seen a bubble cap with a central downcomer or return tube.. in my research... I have never seen it on HD in any form like what is shown in the video...

Please revisit this and see if you can find the previous post and if you can I would love to read it..

Harley, WTF are you talking about there is no E85 production being discussed when using this plate... Do you have any experience running bubble caps with central downcomer to document what the taste profile may or may not be... I don't see any reason for this type of speculation...

I am not talking any specific brand or anything here.. I am talking about a new type of bubble cap/downcomer setup for education and thought provoking concepts and ideas...

It's something different .... and different can be exciting at times..

Happy Stillin

FS
Last edited by FullySilenced on Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by rad14701 »

I know they are here, FullySilenced, because I just stumbled across them the other day... Perhaps a bit different configuration but the downcomers are on the bottom of the plate and similar bubble caps... But they may each be separate rather than a downcomer through each cap...
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by FullySilenced »

Rad, and BTW Happy Birthday RAD... :mrgreen:

The only one i have ever seen with a central downcomer is Googes Flap Plate... Is that the one you are thinking of?

Its not an issue for me but ... It didn't take me looking at this cap combo to see it as something that would work...

FS
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by Prairiepiss »

I know something like this has been posted here before. As I posted it. Only the design was for a single larger bubblecap. With a center downcomer that had a built in return flow diverter. Probably 3 or so years ago. Where I posted it. God only knows. I posted a drawing of my concept and all. But I doubt I could even find it at this point. And I have no clue as to what I did with the original drawings. I think they were on my computer that I lost everything off of.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by rad14701 »

Here is a diagram... Still trying to find the picture of the actual plate...

Image

It's from the Plated Potstill topic...
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by Prairiepiss »

That's the normal SD caps Rad. The one on the video is different. It has a downcomer in each bubblecap.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by rad14701 »

Prairiepiss wrote:That's the normal SD caps Rad. The one on the video is different. It has a downcomer in each bubblecap.
Yep, that's the main difference...
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by heartcut »

Interesting plate design- might just provide better distribution, long as they're offset from the next plate down.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by FullySilenced »

That was my observation as well Heartcut... and the little ss drip directors look like they will allow you to move some of the reflux to wherever you want it to go ... center or to the edges of the plates... not sure what the advantage of that is or will be...

The also have a fluid height adjustment for the downcomers its just a tube extension to make the fluid bed deeper.. some type of insert.. not seen that yet but i can visualize it ..

FS
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by googe »

There a good idea and they've done alot of work building them and they look like.they work. I just think there's to much stuff going on inside the column, 4 caps and downcomers and direction thingies, lots of unnecessary hardware. The direction thingies are just a quick fix for a not so well thought design. A dude on aus d did a large single cap with center downcomer over a year ago. he got the idea from.me and tweaked it and said it worked well. I'll stick with no downcomers, can't get a more active surface area than that :wink:
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by harley03 »

They are not designed to produce alcohol for drinking, it's all commercial / pro manufacturers and users Completely clear on for it is about separation and not only active flat surface, then they must be designed to produce e85 or any other type of industrial alcohol.

Cheers from Sweden
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by waxernz »

Is there any benefits to their design over just making versions of current homemade caps with an extra tube in center that connects with top of cap?
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by wv_cooker »

harley03 wrote:They are not designed to produce alcohol for drinking, it's all commercial / pro manufacturers and users Completely clear on for it is about separation and not only active flat surface, then they must be designed to produce e85 or any other type of industrial alcohol.

Cheers from Sweden
Now Harley what does a plate designed to make E85 look like? E85 is nothing more than above 190 proof ethanol mixed with 15% regular gas to add lubricating properties to the fuel for use in automobiles. The difference between fuel ethanol and drinking ethanol is basically the cuts we make to remove the bad stuff. Fermentation also plays a major part but it has nothing to do with the plates. Plates are to allow the reaction between vapor and liquid to have a place to take place. Let's not pass false Information just because you dislike someone or some company. New folks to the hobby have a hard enough time gaining an understanding of the processes without deceptive information.

As for the plates they are pretty and exiting and full of hype in my personal opinion. The purpose of the downcomer incorporated in the cap is soley for surface area. to use more power on a plate. You have to be able to return 100% of the liquid back down as the amount vapor going up. by adding surface area for returning liquid they are in essence having to apply more power to hold the plate without creating a flooding condition at the downcomers. I am seeing using more and more power these days to create these extremely fast take off speeds without any regard to what's happening in the boiler.

The company that is offering these plates has stated that they were designed for their larger column's above 5 or 6 inches in diameter. Put them in a 10" column and set them on a 500 gallon boiler and you have a different scenario. They would be highly efficient at carrying that type of heat and handling those amounts of vapor and returning liquid.

I still have a concern with the liquid bed level on the plate but they say they will be offering some sort of extensions to raise the liquid levels on the plate, but at the price point I am already hearing they are quite expensive for the hobby level. There are other issues I see at the hobby level but at the commercial level they just may be good.

As in all things distilling they are good for what they were designed to do but are not the end all be all plate for the hobbiest. It is sad that we have stooped to bashing instead of explaining the theory's and technologies of how things work so that newcomers aren't getting the same type youtube trash that goes on all over the internet. Just my 2 cents!
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by Hound Dog »

Well said WV. For all the nay saying, I do not quite catch how this is working.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by badbird »

There's a diagram posted over on the SD forum that explains the workings pretty well.
I like the concept, doubt that I can afford it though.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by heartcut »

Great design concept, don't believe it'll do anything to the quality of separation (or taste). Should make the plates more efficient and faster.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by emptyglass »

I don't see anything new here.
They look sexy, they look flash. They look like they are worth a bit of coin due to the amount of work gone into them.

But can they compete with other types of plates? I don't know. I have my doubts.

There is lots of mention about their ability to eliminate flooding, but I'd like to see a video of them running some all grain, solid rich wash/mash. Maybe they don't flood as bad as the older design, but I still see potential for them to flood.

I'd be interested to know if the combined surface area of the 4 caps in a 5" column is less than a common 3/4" downcomer.

I'm not sure but the ABV shown in the parrot seemed high, given the temp probe in the parrot seemed to show like 34c. Seemed like it was closer to 91%?? I could have seen something the wrong way in the vid, it was only a glance.

If I could be sure these would outperform perforated plates, I'd order enough to kit out 5 plates and try them. But I need my doubts re assured before I place an order.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by FullySilenced »

I guess if you try em and don't like em please rememeber that there is a no questions asked, money back guarantee... not sure if there are limitations or a time frame involved but...

At least that's whats published

I got no dog in this biting regardless...

FS

@Emptyglass I am going to try get the sizing or area so we can compare and get you an answer to your questions...
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by harley03 »

Basic plate design is and always has been .... that one should endeavor that the reluxen / return liquid from the plate above shall have such a long way that it is only possible on the plate before it at the next plate return pipe and this has the taste and the ability to separate to do!

Briefly tell them established large manufacturers of distillation that the longer distance / road that you can achieve that return fluid must transport himself at the plate, the more "pure" taste transfer each plate ... and this applies to all types of tiles Sieve, single bubble caps which many bubble caps, valved tray

This is not something that I say without all the big and established manufacturers that I've talked to, yes I have put several thousand hours in the plate design and I have also had the privilege to "get" to talking to a number of distillation engineers (and before they also vendors, but they should always be taken with a pinch of salt) because I have been a very potent "potential" customer ....

Take for example a careful look / control of Kothes single bubbelcaps Aroma plate which I have attached picture of before and even Empty Glass received by me and published on their forum.

There, you should all see that all return tubes are placed in line (they're also adjustable from outside) on the same side of this massive single bubbelcaps, but there is also a "control" that is clearly visible in the top of the return pipe which also occupies the entire distance between bubbelcapsen and the wall, and this means that reflux / return liquid fluid must reach about 350 degrees all around this massive single bubbelcaps before reaching the next plates return pipe ...

This is one of their "patent" together with the design / lip in the low serrated pattern, and this plate is not called Aroma plate / column for no reason ..
Read on a bit themselves, we learn to see what I'm talking about, if you open your eyes ....

I understand why Still Dragon's approach and it suits their device design very well, but do not tell/say that this design is good at transferring clean flavors for then you do not know what you're talking about ... it is much, much worse on this but surely becomes a bigger plate more effective with these bubbelcaps with 1pc return tube in each bubbelcaps if you look and cf. their old return solution that meant that they needed the 1pc in a 4 "and 3-4pc in an 8" and 7-8pc in a 12 "...


Their basic problem is that they do not have bigger / heavier return tube when the column diameter increases, and requires that..., but they have to increase the number of return pipe instead, and even their existing bubbelcaps is small, too small and the total price will be too high when we're talking about larger column diameters than 8 "

Which means you lose extremely much flat surface with their previous solutions ... and now they try to work out a solution with greater bubbelcaps that they can screw together, unfortunately, they have missed the most essential when they designed this bastard ... we should be drinking the final product and then taste a substantial important ...

Which is also likely to be a problem for those who now dare to buy these bastards is that during each bubbelcaps there is a cup / vapor lock that is filled with liquid reflux ... how shall they empty all these before the next distillation here, we talk about a significantly greater amount than it will be with only a rough reflux tube and 1pc vapor lock ...

Something that they seem to have forgotten ...

I hope that google translate this so you can understad it....

Cheers from Sweden...
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by FullySilenced »

I posted a new design... very few have run these caps... since they are new and no others out there like them that i can find from any manufacturer... time will tell.

Harley keep building, your doing a great job and you will distill a fine product someday...
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by wv_cooker »

Harley not once have I defended this design for the hobby application and that is what we are here. But I do defend the structure of this forum against rhetoric of any kind. Unlike your previous statement that they were for making gasoline and that simply isn't a true statement and is misleading to people trying to learn plate design and distillation principles. Now you are saying that another commercial companies products make better alcohol for drinking, I question just how many ferments you have made and ran through each to be able to stand behind such statements? there are many types of plates designed for different products and to arbitrarily say one is better than the other based on theory make me want to know where I can buy some to try myself. Is your distillery running yet after 2 years and if so where might I purchase a bottle to try for myself?

You have brought a lot of technology and design to the distillation world and a lot of what I know I learned from your post's over the last 2 years. but let's look at the design based on merit and not personal feelings. I also know that a highly respected member of the distillation world had some involvement in the putting together this design and he is one that has been distilling for a very long time, I can see where it is going with the ability to push lot's of power and no chance of flooding, do to the placement of the slots in the vapor path I still don't necessarily agree with the design for the hobby level but I do see it's advantages in larger columns.

As heartcut and others have pointed out separation may not be the best in it's current configuration but I can see ways to change that, the whole point was this was a thread to discuss the design whether your of the opinion of it being good or bad, without the personal bashings or sh** slinging. Again my 2 cents!
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by harley03 »

Hi Wv_ cooker,
No hard feeling but this is crap... for commercial use... and they call it pro...
I see really only One use of these bubble caps with integral return tube.. and it's in 2 "and 3" columns for hobby use where you have only 1pc of them ...

When we're talking larger columns for commercial use we'll talk 8 "and up, and then these are totally useless depending on what I write in the text above ...

The larger columns, the larger the space available for a gross return pipe ...

I can give you an example of my next 12 "column construction that will have a single bubbelcaps and virtually every single return pipe in a straight line with reflux licuid control so all the reflux fluid must transport himself 350 degrees around my big single bubbelcaps for maximum separation and taste transfer and circumference / length return liquid must ship itself is about 65cm :shock: ... total of about 70 cm as it is around this single bubbelcaps in my next 12” column.. but this is for maximum tasted products and commercial use...

I have really only one problem left to solve ... and that's how I should be able to empty 1pc big reflux vapor lock after each distillation .. but I have some ideas that have not yet been tested

And yes this is a modified version of a Kothe distillation plate, which I keep as “top of the line” when we're talking maximum flavor transfer ... and if a want neutral and speed nothing can beat 20pc sieve plates....

Cheers from Sweden land of pure vodka
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by wv_cooker »

No hard feelings at all Harley as I have stated opinions are a part of discussion, and thank you for bringing this back to a discussion of opinions. You seem to Like bubble caps in there original form which is great. I personally like perf plates or sieves as you say. Others will like the new design fullysilenced has posted here and yet others will do packing as always in this hobby. I am happy to see that we can discuss all designs without making false statements because of personal feelings.

As for draining the downcomer, it doesn't take much to drain I can see the bolt in the bottom being quite sufficient for this.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by googe »

It is a lot of hype because it's neat and clean and in a shiny glass column and everyone wants shiny neat clean stuff. I can see what harleys saying about area, activity, action, if you watch the video closely you can see alot of splashing up high onto the column walls very close to the plate above, I see that as to active, all entrainment?. I also see falling fluid from the center downcomer base as well as from the direction things, some has to be going straight down the downcomer. I'm not picking it to pieces, they posted this openly and im giving my thoughts on what I see, there doing great introducing new ideas and sharing, I'd be happy with feedback good.or bad if I was introducing new ideas.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by olddog »

When new ideas arrive, the knockers come out, I know from personal experience with the Magic Flute. Now all of the knockers are using one.

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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by waxernz »

I really want to try a small single cap version for my build in 3" sight glasses.
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Re: New Bubble Cap Design...

Post by googe »

waxernz wrote:I really want to try a small single cap version for my build in 3" sight glasses.
better get building then :thumbup:
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