Plates Plates Plates

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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby googe » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:58 pm

There's alot of pressure with a bath depth that deep too.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Prairiepiss » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:23 pm

As for the PTFE balls. Does PTFE float or sink in a high ABV liquid? Or a low one for that matter? If they float. They wouldn't be a good choice.

How much space is between the balls and the keepers? If you could somehow regulate how much each would flow. By adjusting the space between the ball and its keeper. As in you only allow it to open so much. This could would allow more vapor to be available for the others to work. Maybe.

The way I see it is this.

With a plate like this. The measurements and spacing of each ball and socket. Would need to be very exact. Along with the plate being very level. So that each ball gets the same pressures from above and below.

I still find it an interesting idea. And I'm glad you have taken the time and effort to experiment with it.

Bit getting it to work. For a hobby build. May be a waste of time. When other options are just as easy. If not easier. And they don't have the down falls of not all of them bubbling.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby olddog » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:25 pm

I would of thought the answer to the problem was bloody obvious. The size of the holes are far too big, once one ball is lifted by pressure, it causes an immediate pressure drop on the rest. Make the holes under the balls the same size as a normal perf plate and it will work.

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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Sungy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:49 pm

When I made my vavle plates I did some math.
Took a perf plate

number of holes in perf plate x diameter of holes = target surface area for my plate holes
target surface area for my plates / # valve holes in my plates = hole diameter.

This worked for me...multiple times.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Prairiepiss » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:56 pm

olddog wrote:I would of thought the answer to the problem was bloody obvious. The size of the holes are far too big, once one ball is lifted by pressure, it causes an immediate pressure drop on the rest. Make the holes under the balls the same size as a normal perf plate and it will work.

OD

Restricting vapor flow from the bottom. Instead of my thinking of on the top.

Much better idea OD. :thumbup:
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby MoonWhisky » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:15 pm

:oops: hey guys thanks for all the feed back :thumbup: as you all saw my plate failed :evil:. But it's something I had to try and see for myself. Wasn't the first time I failed won't be the last. It all falls down to, vapor takes the least restrictive path. Like OD said once one ball moves of its seat the hole underneath is too big & release all the pressur. O well iI'll think of something different.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby MoonWhisky » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:21 pm

Also like prairiepiss said the plate has to be very level which was a challenge of its own. Any movement of the plate would change which ball trap would work.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Sungy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:25 pm

Keep the experimentation coming.. It makes us all better for it. The more we try as a collective group the more each and every one of us learns from the experience.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby skow69 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:06 pm

Kudos, Moon, and thanks for the hard work you keep doing. The failed experiment will often teach us more than the successful one.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby waxernz » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:13 pm

Could you just quick solder washers with small openings onto your bearing valves to test smaller openings?
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby MoonWhisky » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:10 am

Hey guys I've been very busy lately but I'm going try the copper washer with smaller holes
waxernz wrote:Could you just quick solder washers with small openings onto your bearing valves to test smaller openings?

The new openings will be 11/64th instead 3/8th
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby MoonWhisky » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:59 pm

IMG_20140809_155624.jpg
Before
IMG_20140809_155700.jpg
After

I'm going to try it out see if it makes a difference
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby MoonWhisky » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:56 pm

Here's a video with the new plate design. I'd say about half of them worked.
New ball bearing traps: http://youtu.be/aFEhzJWUv8E
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby thatguy1313 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:49 pm

You'll get there. I've liked this idea ever since the first post. Didn't someone else have a thread where they did a nice valved plate? Kentucky Shiner? Might want to see what diameter his holes are and how many.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby MoonWhisky » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:41 pm

Yes this is with water
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Sungy » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:13 am

For a 4 inch plate I used 12 valves. They have 7/16 holes that have a slopped side to match up to the flair used in the valve body. The valves can open 3/16 inch.
completed valves.jpg
Parrot trap top.jpg
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Scribbler » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:16 am

Whoah!!
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Scribbler » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:19 am

Ok, I totally get what the valves do... And it looks like the bottom of the parrot fits into the recess on the opposite side... It looks like it make a u trap... Can you describe what effect this has on function?

Looks awesome btw!
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Sungy » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:52 am

The parrot trap give me a view of my reflux back to the boiler for comparison to the product take off parrot and is removable and can be attached to any other plate module. The parrot trap is 2 inch deep to prevent blow out of the liquid seal. In operation of my still I have an extra sight glass at the bottom for viewing the trap, and you can watch the liquid in the trap actually boiling on the top edge. The downcommer from the plate above fits into the suspended 1 inch cup on this plate, and has a self priming trap that is very deep (7/8 inch for the cup plus the fluid bed height of plate 1/2 inch for a total of 1 3/8 inch). This configuration makes the trap stay full all the time as it is the lowest part of the plate.

Hope this explanation will help others.
- I found J traps suspended above a boiling plate where prone to blow out.
- The cup on top of a boiling plate also had issues with blow out at high power because of the volatile liquid next to it caused boiling the trap( temperature is very close between the liquid and vapor)
- The suspended trap works the best Ive found so far in my testing.

Im currently doing some testing of bubble cap plates and have plans to build a few sieve plates for comparison. It all takes time but I like building stuff.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Brendan » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:01 am

That's awesome Sungy! Brilliant craftsmanship there :clap:

And great thread Moon, loving the iterations of your design. Keep pushing and you'll nail it...plus you've got OD weighing in with advice, how could you go wrong?! :thumbup:
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Scribbler » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:08 am

+1 Brendan
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby BigSwede » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:41 am

Some sort of flute is in my future... But it won't be experimental like these excellent designs, it'll be standard, more or less. I need to learn the ins and outs of basic distillation first.

Great stuff, guys, thanks for sharing. I am coming home from vacation. It was fun, but I couldn't stop thinking about fabrication... I miss my work shop.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby acfixer69 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:26 am

I think Sungy and I were doing this about the same time. Mine with copper rivets worked very well but best with a shallow liquid level of 1/2".

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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby Scribbler » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:33 am

Nice. I'm leaning toward no experimental as well... But that parrot trap really has me thinking! I might explore a half parrot trap (the down tube fitting into a recess, but no actual 'parrot beak') in conjunction with bubble caps...
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby acfixer69 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:01 pm

Scribbler wrote:Nice. I'm leaning toward no experimental as well... But that parrot trap really has me thinking! I might explore a half parrot trap (the down tube fitting into a recess, but no actual 'parrot beak') in conjunction with bubble caps...


Nothing experimental going on with the valve plate verses caps or perf plate styles. You just need to make a choice and design it to your limitation. They all work if thought out. Good luck and post your results for the group of builders

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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby MoonWhisky » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:22 pm

That's awesome guys! :clap:
I'm in the process of buying a new home, so my hobbys will be put on hold for a while plus the wife is 7 months pregnant with our second daughter so I'll have my hands full for a while till we get settled in our new house.
I'd love to see to new ideas pop up while I'm on the the side lines.
My thinking won't stop till I get a working plate that's different from standard plates.
The ball trap plate would work very well if only 5-6 traps were in a plate instead of 21 like what I got. I may block half of them off but I still need to get it to stay level in the bowl. May try a threaded rod down the center with a nut and washer to hold it down. I don't want to solder it as I'd like to have the plates interchangeable.
Keep up the good work guys! :thumbup:
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby DAD300 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:01 pm

After looking for a while, I decided this post fit the spirit of this original post.

Disclosure - don't freak on the boiler sizes as I am a fully licensed DSP.

I have accidentally stumbled on to what I'll call "an Adjustable Sieve Plate." Although there is an idea of it being a "Random Packed Plate."

I was looking to add some cleanable copper mesh (as a sulfur catalyst) to a bubble cap plated column.

This is an 8" column over a 150 gallon boiler, but I believe and have tested the idea as completely scale-able.

So, I added a sight glass "T" with a home made plate under it, to an existing column just to hold some copper mesh. I can reach in through the sight glass to get the mesh and clean it as needed.

My homemade 8" copper plate has 80, 1/4" holes in it. It wasn't meant to be a Sieve Plate, just something to hold the copper mesh. But...

Plate area is 50.62"
Hole area is .049
Area of 80 Holes is 3.92

Hole Area to Plate Area Ratio is 7.7%

So, accidentally, Hole Area falls within the ratio of a functioning sieve plate. But with the holes so big, reflux from the plate above drops through the new plate with no hold up at all.

Now, when I add the copper mesh on top of this plate, it holds reflux from the plate above and bubbles just like the bubble cap plates above it. Tighter mesh=more hold up. Looser mesh = less hold up.

I ran this setup about ten times before the copper mesh started to deteriorate and drop bits into the boiler and became a mess. So, I replaced the copper mesh with 2" depth of 1/2" copper pipe connectors. Dropped in randomly, it works the same as the mesh.

Scale-ability...

I have a 4" x 36" column with 30" of SPP over a 50 gallon boiler. This column has a 4" sight glass "T" between the boiler and the column to create a copper catalyst chamber. Previously filled with copper mesh. It bubbled as described above. It also followed suite, bubbles perfectly, when I replaced the copper mesh with bits of copper tube cut from a roll of soft copper tube. The bits are 1/4" dia and appox 3/8" long, randomly dropped on a 4" plate, about 2" thick with an Area to Hole Ratio of 50%. Yes... the plate is a filter plate from SD, 50%...

I've run the 8" dia column about five times after the pipe connector switch and the 4" column twice.

Theory is, any Sieve Plate with a Hole Area Ratio of 8-50%, can be self adjusting via Random Packing on the top of the holes, to get the desired Hold-up Ratio. The Hold-up Ratio is constantly being adjusted by the Vapor Speed moving the Packing off the Holes Area. Low Vapor and the Packing settles on to the Holes.

The Random Packing, mesh, copper tube bits, whatever...just has to be mobile. As long as it is light enough vapor can move it off the Sieve Plate Holes, the Plate Area to Hole Area Ratio becomes self-adjusting and far less important then without the Packing.

Other discussion here about Valved Plates focused on large holes (larger than normal sieve plate holes) and captive balls, rivets, hinged flaps to close the holes as the vapor speed decreased. To some extent I see these as self-adjusting also, but all require more engineering and build skill than this idea.

I know this hasn't even touched on a Downcomer.

Ideas? Thoughts?
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby DAD300 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:36 pm

No interest?
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby HDNB » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:01 pm

've been doing (i think) the same thing. i use 2 seive plates when making whiskey and it's not enough copper inside the SS everything else, so i added about 9" of loosely packed mash. holds up nice and bubbles just like a plate should, as you describe.
the main thing is...is that it does deffo improve the likker smell and taste, so ima keep doing it.
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Re: Plates Plates Plates

Postby thecroweater » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:59 pm

None of those are bad ideas but an effectively working catalyst should go between the deflagmator and Lynne arm. In this position it will not work as a partial plate or thump box but it will ameliorate the vapour prior to it getting to the Lynne arm and ... ahem the descending path :thumbup: .
It's for this reason the big German players like Holstein, Carl and Kothe have structured copper catalysts in this position.
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