Valved VS. Internal Reflux Designs and the Bokakob build

[Skymeat]

Hi Folks,

This has probably been discussed before but I couldn't find it.

Is one design better overall than the other in any significant way? I am looking at building one of the two models I found at:

moonshine-still.com/page2.htm

Has anyone here constructed either one from these plans? How did it go? Any better plans out there?

From what I understand (or think I do) the reflux rate in the internal is controlled by the amount and temperature of the coolant, and the valved is controlled by restricting the exhaust. I may be completely wrong too. Tell me if I am please.

I'm leaning toward the valved design at this point. Mainly because it has knobs and looks cool.

My main considerations are:
Is there any danger of the valved design building enough internal pressure to rupture the containment vessels (if it does in fact operate in the manner I imagine) during normal operation?
Is one easier to operate? More sensitive, or easier to regulate and maintain a constant temperature?
Is using silver solder a skill that is difficult to teach one's self?
Does it really matter which I make?

Any comments would be welcome. Tell me what to do and I'll go blow $$ on copper tubing:)


Hello. Good to be here,
Skymeat

[HookLine]

Welcome Skymeat.

DO NOT build the internal reflux with the cooling pipe through the bottom.

Build the valve reflux. Do it all in 2", don't worry about doing a 3" condenser section. And don't run the cooling water lines along the main column, keep them separate.

Or do a Bokabob slanted plate. Go to the mother site, and then to Equipment>Making a still>Designs and plans, and check the Bokabob designs page link as well

Or a vapour management.

Do some searches and reading on this forum before you decide which one to build. Yahoo Distillers and New Distillers forums also got some good photos and advice.

Cheers

[Skymeat]

The reason I focused on the models I mentioned is because they were the easiest most straight forward plans I've yet to find. I would like my first "real" attempt to produce acceptable results. My first attempt was boiling a Camelbak full of Thunderbird to see if it worked:)

The link to the Bokabob designs on the main page is no longer working.

I'm reading, and reading. But I want (some) easy answers, forgive me and thanks.

What are your reasons for saying not to build the internal reflux model, and what about my fear of pressure build up and subsequent failure of containment (hot gas bursting out)on the valved design? I'm still not sure if I understand the regulation of the valve system.


Thanks for the reply, and I'll continue to read:)


Skymeat

[HookLine]

The reason I focused on the models I mentioned is because they were the easiest most straight forward plans I've yet to find.

The link to the Bokabob designs on the main page is no longer working.

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What are your reasons for saying not to build the internal reflux model,

You want all your reflux cooling/condensing to take place at the top of the still, above the packing. Having reflux cooling lower down only disrupts the heat balance in the column. You won't find anyone here building or promoting the internal reflux model.

what about my fear of pressure build up and subsequent failure of containment (hot gas bursting out)on the valved design?

Shouldn't happen as the top of the condenser section in the valved design is open to the atmosphere.

NEVER seal a still, or set it up so that it could be accidentally sealed shut. It should always have an open vent at the top, above the reflux condenser. You could use a safety release valve on the top of the boiler, but there is no point, just have a vent at the top of the condenser section. (This is for a reflux still, a pot still is a bit different, it is always open through the product condenser.)

I'm still not sure if I understand the regulation of the valve system.

The valve/s control the ratio of reflux condensate returned to the column versus taken off as final product.

You actually only need one valve to make this design work, very few people use two, it is just more cost and fiddling around to control it during a run.

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http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s197 ... rsion2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Skymeat]

what about my fear of pressure build up and subsequent failure of containment (hot gas bursting out)on the valved design?

Shouldn't happen as the top of the condenser section in the valved design is open to the atmosphere.

NEVER seal a still

Thanks. I was being totally dumb.
I remember reading that several times in several places over time. It just took a jogging of the brain to recall.
I was just flooded with a ton of info I read a few years ago when last researching this project:) (this site, but no forum yet, or we would have done this already).
Amazing what you can seemingly forget only to be reawakened instantaneously.
I remember now why I was leaning toward the valved design.

And the most important thing:
"Never Seal A Still".

How I forgot that I'll never know, it's basic common sense.

Thanks for the jump start of my memory. It helped, I can completely visualize the process now, and you saved me the frustration I was having in my overlooking the obvious.



Skymeat

Postscript: Do you have any thoughts about the ease of acquiring the skill of silver soldering? I've soldered circuit boards and know what a good union looks like, is it difficult to do the same with a torch on piping? Thanks.

[HookLine]

Thanks for the jump start of my memory. It helped, I can completely visualize the process now, and you saved me the frustration I was having in my overlooking the obvious.

Skymeat

Postscript: Do you have any thoughts about the ease of acquiring the skill of silver soldering? I've soldered circuit boards and know what a good union looks like, is it difficult to do the same with a torch on piping? Thanks.

You're welcome.

I have done a lot of circuit board soldering in my time too. Soldering pipes is similar, but practice on some scrap first. The main thing is to decide if you are going to use soft tin based solder or hard silver based braze. Soft solder needs a lot less heat (around 200C), and braze takes around 650C. Silver based brazes run like water when they melt so are real easy to fill joins with, and the joins are much stronger than for solder.

Also, you can hit the join directly with the torch when brazing. But for soft solder aim the flame a bit off to the side and let the heat run up to the join, otherwise you will burn (oxidise) the flux paste and have to re-clean the join and add fresh flux.

Copper pipe soaks up heat like nothing, but if you have access to an oxy-acetylene kit you're laughing. I have brazed a brass fitting onto a 50 mm copper pipe using a hand held MAPP torch plus a propane torch to get enough heat (a friend held one of them).

When using braze you need to get the copper red hot, but this also anneals it and makes it much softer, so it bends quite easy. Depending on the situation this could be an advantage, or a problem, or neither. I haven't found it a problem for the copper parts on my still.

Only use food grade solder or braze that does not have lead or cadmium or antimony in it. I used Prosilver 2, which is 2% silver, about 96% copper, with the rest being phosphorous which acts as a flux for copper-copper joins, but you still need some boron based flux paste for copper-brass joins. Don't forget to de-lead any brass fittings first.

Have fun, and goodnight, it's bedtime here (Australia).

[Husker]

Howto solder:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4052

[new_moonshiner]

This was the first one I built .. the Internal reflux found here moonshine-still.com/page2.htm that was before I knew what I really needed to build the plans looked simple enough .. as matter of fact I never did run it and offered it to anyone willing to pay the shipping on it.. In US of course .. dont think the value of it would justify shipping outside the USA..Its kinda on the heavy side..for shipping ..

[junkyard dawg]

THe valved design is much better.

There are many great mods posted here to make it even better...

the internal reflux design should be moved to the history bin....

Bokabobs inline design is cheaper and does the same thing as the valved. Most all designs at this level act like potstills... Some just have clever ways of sending the distillate back into a relatively short column to purify it again.

and again

and again.

[Red Eye Rising]

as matter of fact I never did run it and offered it to anyone willing to pay the shipping on it.. In US of course .. dont think the value of it would justify shipping outside the USA..Its kinda on the heavy side..for shipping ..

Is this column still available? Got some ideas going now....

[Skymeat]

Thanks everyone for info,
I've spent the last couple days looking at pictures and schematics, visualizing how to build each and operate.

I'm going to opt for the Bokakob mini. I can make the necessary cuts in the column at work very precisely, and the reduction of total fittings will put more of the fund into other areas of the build.

A couple things: I was planning on building the boiler out of a 15G keg. Will the size of the boiler necessitate making the column larger, or bigger cooling coil? Obviously I need a larger supply of water for cooling a large run. Also we have a hippy recycling place in town where you can buy used building materials. What are the thoughts on using recycled copper, and is removing previously soldered joints advisable?



Skymeat

[Husker]

A couple things: I was planning on building the boiler out of a 15G keg. Will the size of the boiler necessitate making the column larger, or bigger cooling coil? Obviously I need a larger supply of water for cooling a large run. Also we have a hippy recycling place in town where you can buy used building materials. What are the thoughts on using recycled copper, and is removing previously soldered joints advisable?

Skymeat

If you are going from the 5Gallon stock pot, to a 15 gallon keg, then yes, I would recommend larger on both. Probably 2" column, and 40" tall, with top 10" used as condenser would work.

Recycled copper tubing is fine, but you will have some problems (usually) getting any used fittings to work. I got most of my copper for my projects from one of the local scrap metal dealers. usually, you can find some tubing all in one piece that looks 'good enough' to use. Often when they scrap a building, and pull copper, the stuff gets cut into 5 to 6' sections, which is perfect for us.

Not sure about recycled hippies though. They might smell up the place a bit

H.

[tracker0945]

With regard to the previously soldered joints I would give a positive YES for removal. You do not know what type of solder was used.
By all means use the pipe as this can be cleaned without concern but old solder joints are always sus.

[Skymeat]

The hippie recycling place paid off. I bought nice tubing cheaper than they were buying it at the scrap metal yard across town.

I got a 48" X 2.5" tube, some plate and a bunch of fittings for 50$. I couldn't and didn't expect to find something for a condenser.

I've been removing old solder (common sense, but I lack it at times. (thanks)). I am prepping for the build as I think.

I think half of the population around here are hippies. They say old hippies don't die they move to "here". And they don't smell so bad once they turn 50 and get a real job .

Thanks all,
Skymeat

[Skymeat]

Well I got off early today, and left work early too. So I started in on building.
I've never worked with any of these materials/processes before and it's driving me nuts!

The condenser is done, 20 turns of 1/4" in 7", plus 3" loop at the bottom because I ran out of tube and had to get a compression fitting to join another tube to exit the column. I couldn't get salt into the tube, it kept getting stuck somewhere, so I flushed it and got fine salt, with the same result. The fine salt just stopped immediately. The fine salt wouldn't flush out with water either. I had to use a shop-vac to suck water into it and then release, and reapply the vacuum many times to get it to start to dissolve. Then I tried to fill the tube with water like I read in an earlier post. DON'T DO IT. I initially was thinking about the affect of the heat on the water....and then decided what the hell. Well, hot boiling water spewed from the side I was heating and cold spewed from the other, it was a real train wreck. If I had a way to seal the ends without heat it would probably be a good plan. I ended up bending it around the dowel that serves as clothes hanger. In any event I have a condenser that by everything I've read here will suffice. Not pretty but a 2$ connector is better than another 30$ of tubing.

The column: The one I got from the hippie recycling place was pitted and corroded on the inside, I really didn't like the looks of it, like something terrible had been pumping through it. So I went searching for a new one. I was driving to a plumbing supply store (last ditch effort, every other retail option exhausted) where I could buy 2" at 12.50$/foot 10 foot minimum. Next door was a place called "Coyote Steel" I went in and the said yeah we have A piece of 2". Turned out it was 6 feet long and heavy walled. I asked what they wanted and the final price....15$$ The only problem was a 1/4" hole drilled in the side of it. This I patched with a 1/4" chunk soldered into place.

That's about as far as I got. I tried to solder the upper plate in, and I can't generate enough heat to get the joint red hot. I'm taking it to work tomorrow and blasting it with the BIG torch. I got ahold of some flux coated brazing rods and am going to give her what fer.

Almost final report: Ugly on the inside, but pretty on the outside (Just like my last couple girl friends ).

I can't wait for the "attaching the column to the boiler" part.

On the bright side I actually made a couple bucks selling the copper. And I am still having fun. I don't spend much time making new things, a lot of time repairing broke ones. Creation is a beast, I like.




Skymeat

[CoopsOz]

LOL, the trials and tribulations....if it's any consolation Skymeat, we've all been there.

[tracker0945]

Its all part of the process I'm afraid.
But when you finally gaze upon the finished apparatus that YOU made, you wouldn't swap it for anything.
"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

[bronzdragon]

or...

Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder.

~r~

[Skymeat]

Had a better time of it today:) I got the column done. I visited a friend a local brewery and got a 15g keg for 20$, plus he's going to try to introduce me to a buddy of his who does this too. Not a bad day. Just a couple more things to do....

Oh yeah, the gave a me huge wine barrel too. I just need to figure out hot to get it in the car...

Good Day all around:)

Skymeat

[punkin]

Had a better time of it today:) I got the column done. I visited a friend a local brewery and got a 15g keg for 20$, plus he's going to try to introduce me to a buddy of his who does this too. Not a bad day. Just a couple more things to do....

Oh yeah, the gave a me huge wine barrel too. I just need to figure out hot to get it in the car...

Good Day all around:)

Skymeat

Chop it up first....

[Skymeat]

I test fired the rig yesterday with water. It leaked like a sieve. The plates (both) leaked, and there was one in the condenser too. So I took the plates out and re-soldered, they look much better now and are holding a column full of water. The condenser is fixed too. I think I may just have the ugliest setup here. But I have high hopes for her.

The question I have....I used a compression fitting needle valve in the take off. I just discovered that they aren't really removable. Any ideas on a reusable way to disconnect the tube after the needle valve? I hope this makes sense. There is 6" of 1/4" going into the valve from the column, and about 8 feet after the valve, I can't get the 8' section apart from the valve.



Skymeat

[Rudi]

If you mean you cant get the copper/brass olive off the pipe you can give it a little heat to make it expand then cool the pipe with water. If not I dunno what you mean and need more info.

[tracker0945]

The olive and threaded fitting (either m or f) stay with the pipe and should come away from the tap in one piece. Similarly the fittings on the pipe from the column to the tap should separate from the tap and remain with the pipe.
If not, I don't know what type of fittings you are using.
Cheers

[Skymeat]

I think I was once again being slow:) The compression sleeve, and nut stay put....

I'll post a couple pics soon. It looks damn impressive to me. Might be ugly, but forces of nature can be.




Skymeat

[Skymeat]

Finished pics.

[tracker0945]

That will produce plenty of drinkable spirit.
Learning to use it is the next step and that is where the fun begins.
If I can offer a word of advice it would be to 'write everything down so that when something good happens, you know how to do it again'
Just don't be dissappointed with your first results if they are not up to your expectations. The still will take a run or two to 'season' and from then on - onwards and upwards.

[Skymeat]

Point taken.
I have about 200 pages of beer brewings.
Half the fun is the documentation. Oh what a nerd I am...





Skymeat

[CanadianWhiskey]

in theory..when you open the valve to control the distillate back to the column, wouldnt you be letting vapour up, contaminating the distill pooling to the collection valve?????

[tracker0945]

in theory..when you open the valve to control the distillate back to the column, wouldnt you be letting vapour up, contaminating the distill pooling to the collection valve?????

There is no return of distillate externally back into the column. The pipe and tap is the distillate collection pipe.
All distillate return down the column is done internally.