Control proof off of column still

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cadillac7985
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Control proof off of column still

Post by cadillac7985 »

Not sure if this is the right spot for this question, but here it goes. I was wondering is it possible to control the proof coming off of a column still? I see that they are used for getting very high proofs upwards of 190, but what if you want to keep the proof below 160 coming of the still? do you remove plates or.....Would this be better suited for a pot still? I didn't have much success searching for this topic, I apologize if its been talked to to death on here but if so would you mind pointing me to the right threads?

Thanks so much!
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by bluefish_dist »

You can easily lower proof off the still. You have to balance the amount of reflux, plates, power, and the starting abv to achieve the output abv you want. Fewer plates, more power and less reflux will all lower the abv. Also the lower the starting abv, the lower the end abv.
There are more than one to achieve the same abv. Could be 4 plates with almost no reflux or 2 plates with a lot of reflux. You have to run your rig and see what you like.

I run two plates over wort and pull off at 140 proof. I also know others who run low wines with 4 plates. So try a few setups and see what works for you.
Last edited by bluefish_dist on Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by HDNB »

a 30% charge, two plates and a wee bit of reflux with medium high heat makes 78%abv all day for me.

get a needle valve on the RC output will keep it running smoothly at desired abv.
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cadillac7985
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by cadillac7985 »

Thank you so much for the insight! Can you recommend anything/anywhere that would educate me more on the balance or methodology between reflux, plates, and power?
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by still_stirrin »

cadillac7985 wrote:...Can you recommend anything/anywhere that would educate me more on the balance or methodology between reflux, plates, and power?
As I read the replies, I read that most say the best place is in your still house...ie - experience with your own equipment. I don't think anybody can tell you how your still runs...you've got to learn it.

You can read and read how others run their equipment and the quirks and idiosyncrinisitiss of each, but everybody's still is a little different. And the conditions will vary place to place too, i.e. - water temperature, power source, altitude, weather conditions, etc. All will affect operations somewhat differently.

If I had your still, I could tell you how I'd run it. But I don't...you do. Learn how you'd run it to get the products you want off of it.

Sorry if this answer isn't what you wanted to hear. It is what you needed to hear.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by bluefish_dist »

Do a run, see what you get then adjust for the next run or even stop, cool and reconfigure. We can't even begin to comment until we have a base line.

It depends if you run lm, vm, or cm. what abv do you want when you are done? If it's too high, take out plates or add heat or back off reflux or do some combination of the three.
Last edited by bluefish_dist on Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by MoonBreath »

Yes for me same recipe, 10% wash, 2 plates, graduating reflux, graduating heat, start collectn 170° head temp ending at 40abv by parrot, the onset of tails every time, puts me at 120 delicious proof errrtime.
Took many, many finger lickn, standn there nursing runs, about 4yrs worth, to get it figured/lined out and reliably replicate the same run over after over.
You really won't find what your lookn for in a book..Heres the closest you'll get to hands on experience.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by OtisT »

As stated previously, you need to understand the basics of how changing reflux ratios by adjusting heat and reflux cooling impact ABV out, and how the ABV of your wash impacts ABV out. Each still is different, so record all of your variables and results each time you distill and adjust settings on subsequent runs.

The new info I have for you is this; One way to get a quick handle on how reflux ratios, packing types/height, etc. impact product ABV would be to play with the reflux ratio/plate calculators on the parent site. Enter in your power, packing type, packing height, and your reflux ratio to see how it impacts theoretical results. Everything is relative, so using the calcs page and making changes there can help you make changes on your own still that are directionally correct.

Good Luck. Otis
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by Yummyrum »

Thats some really good advise Otis . Seeing what to adjust to go higher or lower sort of starts to make it all sink in a bit . While on the parent sight read up all the still theory particularly about the reflux stills as it applies almost directly to plated stills
https://homedistiller.org/calcs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://homedistiller.org/theory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
But at the end of the day it is all theory and nothing beats hands on . Moonbreathe , I'm totally hearing you about 4 years to get it down pat .
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by MoonBreath »

Its all about growing into your unit..
Once I kept noticing the same temps and same cuts all matching with the abv, and outcome always the same amount and proof..The runs were all identical in time, takeoff, stack, outcome as said, well I jumped and changed my technique there..
Time in is what makes progress.
No time in, no progress..Or understanding.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by cadillac7985 »

Thanks to all for your sage advice! I do understand that ultimately this is an art and time on the equipment is the true teacher. Off to school I go!
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by MoonBreath »

I've tweaked and tried different length risers, back and forth from 2" to 3" bases ..Ended up goin up to a 3" base and bottom reducer makin a concentric modular ifn you will..
Just time, parts, cooling combinations, up and down with plates, heat source trials and tribulations..Just rite down to screwing up and shuttn her down..
Won't be to long, you'll be laughing while you holden proof and temp 1-2 hrs at a time. :D
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by GinBob »

Easiest thing to do, is keep as many constants as you can and just play with one thing at a time.
I've no idea what you're trying to make so I can't give you any specific advice for a given product but if it were me, I'd leave it on full power (or a manageable power that you're comfortable with), leave the column alone, and leave the starting wash ABV alone, and simply adjust your reflux ratio. Just turn it down until you get the abv% you want. If you find that no matter how far you turn the reflux down you can't get down to the desired ABV, then your column is providing reflux (heat losses to air) and you need to insulate it OR consider changing one of the other parameters.

If you start playing with your column, you might find you take out too many stages, or too few, which means adjusting another parameter, this will make it harder to learn what does what. Given you can make just about any product on any still (provided it has the flexibility, but a column still typically does), I'd learn what the ranges are on what you have first, before you get stuck in to the hardware so much.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by MoonBreath »

GinBob, your advice may be misleading some.
Leaving heat at a constant, or full power, then using the rc as your abv, or output, is incorrect.
On a plated still ifn you run full power, while turning reflux back lookn for a certain spot, you'll overheat, unload, go into pot mode, and screw up the run..
Its actually the opposite, youll never need more heat applied than reflux..RC choice outa always be able to knockdown your heat settings.
Can't drive with rc..Drive with both, heat determines stream, and plate action..Most column references are modular.
Modulars required different hardware, they are modulars.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by GinBob »

MoonBreath wrote:GinBob, your advice may be misleading some.
Leaving heat at a constant, or full power, then using the rc as your abv, or output, is incorrect.
On a plated still ifn you run full power, while turning reflux back lookn for a certain spot, you'll overheat, unload, go into pot mode, and screw up the run..
Its actually the opposite, youll never need more heat applied than reflux..RC choice outa always be able to knockdown your heat settings.
Can't drive with rc..Drive with both, heat determines stream, and plate action..Most column references are modular.
Modulars required different hardware, they are modulars.
What I've said isn't incorrect. If you get to where you are saying, then you've gone below the minimum reflux ratio. You won't screw up the run, it'll be a hiccup no doubt, but you simply put the column back to total reflux and start over. Knowing how far you can dial the reflux back is why I suggested this method. You can also learn where the flood point is if your rig can get there, in which case yes, dial the heat back which is what I'm saying by use a manageable power and then leave it alone.

The method you are suggesting by driving with heat (i appreciate you say to drive with both after that), causes exactly the same type of problem, you dial the heat back to far, you don't get enough reflux because you're not creating enough vapour to recondense at the top of the column, which means the liquid in the column falls, the column unloads, you get no distillate. You gotta start over.

I totally agree the BEST way is to drive with both, but I said easiest, not best.

I don't actually understand what you mean by "You'll never need more heat applied than reflux". Of course you do?! Maybe its a case of mixing definitions so lets make sure we're meaning the same thing. I appreciate you know what you mean, and I know what I mean, but that statement doesn't add up.
Reflux is condensing the vapour and sending it back down the column as liquid. The reflux ratio is the amount of liquid you send back down the column vs how much liquid you take off as product (OR how much vapour you let pass and then condense or process elsewhere if you had a multi column set up)
If all the heat I put in goes in to the liquid in the pot and evaporates to vapour, then the vapour gives up all that heat to the condenser causing the vapour to form a liquid as reflux, then no liquid exits the column. If I want distillate, I have to take some out, which is liquid and by definition, energy, leaving the system, or I take out vapour and condense it (also energy leaving the system).
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by MoonBreath »

What I meant as misleading is (and I appreciate your switch),
were you stated to "leave it at full power (or a manageable your comfortable with)...
Then you stated, "just turn it (rc) down till you get the abv you want"... :lolno: I wished it was that easy..
'Then ifn that don't work, insulate it' :crazy:..
You never stated graduating heat..You stated just full, or comfortable, then drive with rc. :wtf: Yes, I said both, you didn't, but wishn you did..More heat applied than reflux, I think not..Plates won't load, ifn you're a plate guy (not), you'd understand..And Yes, anytime you have to stop, reload, wait for takeoff and start over..Or stop, cool down and restart, losing time and more heads, well yes GinBob, that's a Screwup..Be losin money ifn you was in business..
I doubt if op was talkn about the T500..Notorious for not being accepted right out of the box..Be nice to see pics of your T500 and all the mods one with experience to advise would surely make..
Yes, we all know reflux sends alcohol runnin backwards...You don't dial reflux 'back' during your run..And the Best way Is the easiest imo..
But I gotta know about all these parameters, removing stages, and what.?
Your experience certainly surpasses your post count.
My advice isn't from the book, its from 'sperience :thumbup: .
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by GinBob »

MoonBreath wrote:GinBob, your advice may be misleading some.
Leaving heat at a constant, or full power, then using the rc as your abv, or output, is incorrect.
MoonBreath wrote:What I meant as misleading is (and I appreciate your switch),
MoonBreath wrote:Then you stated, "just turn it (rc) down till you get the abv you want"... :lolno: I wished it was that easy..
I haven't switched anything you've said? Adjusting the reflux ratio moves the column profile up or down. Which then adjusts the take off ABV, given the OP is asking to go from 190 to 160 proof I don't see an issue with this method.
MoonBreath wrote: You never stated graduating heat..You stated just full, or comfortable, then drive with rc. :wtf: Yes, I said both, you didn't, but wishn you did..More heat applied than reflux, I think not..Plates won't load, ifn you're a plate guy (not), you'd understand..And Yes, anytime you have to stop, reload, wait for takeoff and start over..Or stop, cool down and restart, losing time and more heads, well yes GinBob, that's a Screwup..Be losin money ifn you was in business..
No no, I meant what I said, do RC first, that should make the changes the OP is looking for in a controlled way which he can learn from nice and easy. If that doesn't work, then look at changing one of the other parameters.
But sure, lets talk about plates, a plate should have a working range of between 40 - 100% of its flood point. If you're using bubble caps, this should be between 25 - 100% of the flood point. Going from 190 - 160 Proof, SHOULD NOT cause your column to unload. If it does, you're operating very low down your operating range (say I don't know, 50%) and your column is too big or the trays aren't quite the right ones/wrong packing (if you've gone packed)
You're point about the screw up... genuinely don't understand what you're getting at. The OP is asking how to do something, the method given will work just fine, if you stray too far you'll get a minor screw up. He'll learn an awful lot seeing what happens if he does this. You learn a lot more from mistakes than you do from instant success. And yeah, if this was a business you'd be losing money, but if you're trying to start a business distillery and learn how to still at the same time, you're either brave or incredibly stupid.
You certainly wouldn't restart! As you yourself have said, the worst that'll happen if you get more heads... not a big deal if you're learning.
MoonBreath wrote: I doubt if op was talkn about the T500..Notorious for not being accepted right out of the box..Be nice to see pics of your T500 and all the mods one with experience to advise would surely make..
Yes, we all know reflux sends alcohol runnin backwards...You don't dial reflux 'back' during your run..And the Best way Is the easiest imo..
But I gotta know about all these parameters, removing stages, and what.?
Your experience certainly surpasses your post count.
My advice isn't from the book, its from 'sperience :thumbup: .
Cheers.
Who said anything about the T500? As you've brought it up though, for what it is, it isn't bad. Reliably achieving 93% ABV without much work effort and with the basic packing. You can push that up to azeo if you start with a much higher ABV and really dial in the reflux ratio. Next time I have it out, I'll take some pics sure, no problem. I find the biggest improvement was actually to add a pressure reducing valve into the water feed line, I did toy with piping the condenser and the reflux condenser up separately but found it made the reflux a bit twitchy with my local water being so cold, particularly in any season but summer. Quality has improved considerably by using copper scubbers as you'd expect and I'm looking to improve the rest of the packing, one of my last runs I had it too tightly packed and it flooded. So I'm in the process of checking the alternatives and where I need to install them.
Most of my later efforts are on a glass still I have for making gins and infusions which is why this is on the back burner.

The best way, to my mind, is the best way for what you want to achieve, and that entirely depends on how you rank your priorities, the easiest way if the way which gets you to something you can live with, with the least effort. Thats what I mean.

My "sperience" and advice is from books, lectures, specialist courses, designing and deploying columns in the chemical industry, operating columns and optimising columns, primarily for solvent recovery. Then of course my own stripping still, and my little glass unit :thumbup:
Cheers
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by MoonBreath »

Well read !!
Almost word for word..Book don't always work..You're defending yourself too hard, its showin. :lolno:
Or just one who won't concede anything.
Some folks are always rite..
And you're one of them. :think:
I've always said a person's post will show their real experience..Read yours..Flip floppin back and forth for correctness...Whats all these parameters, and removing stages stuff? That talk confuses everyone, let alone a newbie tryn to understand..Words used when lost for words..This is just small scale home distilln..All of your laboratory logic, most of it, will not apply..With all your self-professed (your post don't show it yet) schooln and knowledge (glass), you may be 'overqualified' and just need to slow down a bit and talk in layman's terms..
Let's see your equipment before you start telln other folks bout how to run theirs..Prolly won't happen.
Spect you're the kind that has to have the last word, so get it.
My apologies to the op for mass confusion.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by GinBob »

Image

My little glass rig :)
Whatever you say moon, whatever keeps you happy mate :lolno:
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by MoonBreath »

Yea thats very unsafe for home use..Hopefully anyone who sees this won't want to attempt using glass..
One of the rules we live by..Read em.
There's no preferred application for that here imo.
And no way to correlate any similarities in operation like you're doin in this thread.
Box it up and go the route preferred by folks in the know.
Not lab equipment in a home setting.
Hopefully your insurance agent won't catch wind.
Thats what we do here..Self policing.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by Yummyrum »

GinBob
I'm curious to understand your logic behind why you have a reflux section above the product condenser .

Just reiterating for anyone reading that we don't recommend glass stills .
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by Saltbush Bill »

cadillac7985 wrote: I was wondering is it possible to control the proof coming off of a column still?
Now that everybody may have finished confusing the hell out of you, I'll suggest that the easiest way is to use less plates, a 4 plate perf always want to run at around 92% at the beginning of a run, dropping away to 88ish% toward the end .At least the ones Ive seen in action or have used my self seem to want to do that. Like all stills they have a happy place / sweet spot and that seems to be about where it is to me. Trying to force these stills away from that sweet spot just leads to problems and hardship in my opinion. Less plates will get you a lesser abv with out the trouble.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by GinBob »

Yummyrum wrote:GinBob
I'm curious to understand your logic behind why you have a reflux section above the product condenser .
Absolutely no reason what so ever, this is just a photo I had to hand the kit all clipped together. I was actually making sure I'd ordered all the right bits and that it all clipped together and everything sealed, as well as seeing the relative heights as I wanted to do some essence extractions with 2 phase systems and if I could get a product separator in (as you can see you can't get a erlenmeyer under this, so thats a no).

You don't run it in this set up as you've no doubt guessed.

As for glasswear, I agree if you aren't comfortable with it or have the knowledge/set up to do it safely, then don't at all. This is probably the largest scale I'd go in glass, but I'm not recommending it by any stretch. Works for me.
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Re: Control proof off of column still

Post by DuckofDeath »

I use a temperature controller to turn my deph pump on and off to maintain the proof coming off my column. I set it for 130 proof the other day and it held it for 90% of the run.
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